What is your required Level of Realism?

[Tomlin]

Hi all

Westozzie's (Gwyn) 85% rule has really got me thinking and it has been a real blessing to me, helping me to relax on some little items that could bug the daylight out of any sim builder that demands the ultimate in realism for their sim. Well, that and Maurice's recent discussion on rudder pedal force and other intricacies!

So, here's the Poll and keep in mind that the last choice doesnt have to mean 100%, just more than 85%.

[redman]

Although at the end of the day I spend hours and hours...well, days and days, months and months, and now even years and years stressing over each little millimetre, I know that compromise will be made, and what iI realy want is the "feeling" of being there. Really, if it feels right, and looks "in place" then thats what matters to me.

This compromise wont stop me though; striving and dreaming and thinking and imagining and drawing and designing and testing and mocking(not in the making fun of sense) and building and rebuilding and redoing the whole bloody lot until i get it "right".

What that is...... well, "right" is whatever I want it to be.

:)

If your not enjoying it, either finish and fly or keep building and try.

Cheers
Chris

2nd Anniversay since i first started my 767 overhead

[JBaymore]

Having a "generic" pit..... I guess I have to hit the lowest item. ;)

best,

...............john

[Bob Reed]

I chose 85% but it is probably closer to 75 or even 70 and here is why.
<o></o>
This realism thing razes it’s head every little while. Now before I go further, this is not aimed at ANYONE this is my opinion and that is all it is, not a slam or a swipe to anyone or there project. What is realism.. You know what, it is different for everyone. Now lets look at cockpit simulators specifically. To start with most of us are using Microsoft’s Flight Simulator, a $50.00 program. Right there says something. So we start out having to make a compromise, right before we lift 1 soldering iron or wire or board. The flight characteristics of FS are not even close to real, yes you can get them pretty good but… See what I mean? Aircraft systems? Nope. I could go on and on but I think you get the idea. Now the visuals, they are the second big compromise. We will never have the type of visuals some of us dream of affordably in our lifetimes, so compromise number 2 and we have not even installed the software yet. Lets take the simulator itself. It is called a “simulator” for a reason. It simulates a aircraft, it does not have to look like it 100% to simulate it. The idea is to “fool” yourself into thinking you are in a particular aircraft. Take mine for instance. I would say right now it is about 60% real as I want it. It has 2 747 EFIS panels wrong color but function is real close and the back lighting is GREAT after all they are real panels. The MCP is 777 why? Because it is what I had. Now in that panel I am using real AML switches. When I trip a switch on my MCP it feels good! I fly this thing as 737. Had a guy here and we flew it as a crew and all I can say is the sim worked great! The buttons are where they are supposed to be and they do what they should. When I am flying I do not look at my MCP and say you know this would be so much more fun if it looked like a 737 panel.. I do not even notice what it looks like in fact I hardly look at it at all I reach up and grab the knob and spin it to where I want or I trip the switch I want barley noticing the panel at all. I have also had no problems with the wow factor when people see it for the first time… I get it WOW and then “ you are nuts”. I think a lot of folks get side tracked from all the building they are doing with no flying that they lose touch with what they started it for in the first place and you see those sims and parts up for sale before too long. If I wanted to build a model I would have bought one, would have been a lot easer to do, but I wanted a working cockpit. Hardware, real parts are hard to come by and when you find them you better have DEEP pockets. Now you spent all that money on real parts, how do you hook them up to your computer? Gut them and rewire them… <st1></st1>A lot of money for a face plate. So we use “replicas”. Some replicas look good when you get them but they become a real hardship to get them working and mounted in the cockpit. They have the wrong font! (oh my gaud!) or the color is not just right…..compromise. I know I have never seen a Go Flight module in a real aircraft, but I have them in my sim and guess what, they work great. Some of them will get replaced down the road but I have working radios and transponder and so forth right now. If I get tired of working in it I can fly it! This post is all about if you can not accept compromise then do not even start. You will spend your entire time frustrated and not happy (ask Tomlin). Know that this is a great hobby as long as you tell yourself you will have to compromise on some things and it will make all the better for you and get you in the air a lot sooner, because after all it is all about flying!



Just my 5 cents... I know but inflation! :):shock:

[AndyT]

I have to agree with Bob, but pushing all that aside, it comes down to this; How much time do I want to put into this thing, and what level will I be happy with?

I'm a real world GA pilot and my reason for building my pit is to give myself a place to practice and keep current on various things, because lets face it, it costs a small fortune to be able to fly as much as I would like to. My BIG focus is motion because of all the things we can build into the sim to make it look real, motion is something that makes it FEEL real, and that my friends is where my focus lies.


Added Later:
JBaymore,
Just because its a generic pit does not mean it has a low level of realism, I fly mostly Cessnas and a piper here and there but if I get in a Liberty or something else, then I still know pretty much how to fly it because the instrumentation is mostly the same. Most GA pits are generic in their basic layout and makeup. So you are building your own plane, that means that your level of realism is actually 100% within the bounds of simulation because it matches your design exactly!

[PaulEMB]

I have to agree with Bob,

I started this adventure with flat wooden box to give some idea of an enclosed cockpit, and now have a real size tube, with all the bits in the right place.

How far will I go? About as far as I've got. The focus now has to be on optimizing what is available, and small tweaks.

85% gives me a high score, but the feel of being there is high on my list.

[JBaymore]

I have to agree with Bob, ............

...........but the feel of being there is high on my list.

Ditto, times 2.

Best,

..............john

[Westozy]

Spot on Bob, I totally agree.
I could replicate every piece to 100% as it would be a person of my type of trade designing the original parts in the first place but why would I bother? For instance, my gear lever is not operating hydraulic valving behind the panel, it contacts two microswitches. I haven't fitted a locking device because there is no danger and it's another thing I don't have to explain to a novice. I replicate from pictures and Boeing manuals, I don't think I need to climb all over a real NG with my vernier calipers. My A320 TQs will probably have less than a hundred components, it only has to drive 3 pots and has two button switches after all. I've basically finished my sim in 3 years, if I had gone for absolute realism 3 years would hardly cover the planning and drawing stage.
Guys that do go "all the way" still have a lot of respect from me, it's incredible work they do and incredible time and money the spend. My sim has just reached the AUD$7,000 mark and I have refused an offer of 20k. It's time to fly it and build parts for others, I have to be making something in the shed or I'd go mad, lol! 85% for me, 95% for customers...

Gwyn

[Michael Carter]

I chose "up to 85%", but it's actually what I can afford or build to get it up to 85%. It will never get that high on a 727 build for me.

I really want an accurate panel, control stand, and overhead. I'd be fooling myself if I though I could integrate every detailed function for an unsupported 40 year old jet into my computer. An engineer's station is OUT. There's a big compromise right there on a 727. I'll rely on the on-screen panels for every one of those functions. And that's about half of the operations on the jet! The FE has more workload than either pilot ever has.

I need only the essential functions for the time being. If I can get my MIP functioning where I don't have to use the DF on-screen instrument panel, that will be the biggest hurdle I have faced on this build. If I can accomplish this feat, then I will be satisfied that I did a good job.

Most builders start with the MIP. For my build, this is the last piece of hardware to finish. The reason I chose this order to build it was because the preceeding projects were child's play compared to the 727 MIP.

After completing the rest of the hardware, I was commited to finishing the build with the MIP. I wouldn't have allowed myself to back out of this build after completing so much of the rest of it. If it takes another five years or more, the MIP IS going to be finished, look like the real thing, and operate like the real thing.

[dodiano]

Let me just say one thing and I think most of you will agree and a lot of you won´t but it is a personnal opinion... For me ultimate Realism is a must! Reason I have chosen real parts for my project... Now this has a cost and unfortunatelly I won´t be able to make everything real parts because not everything is available or economically feasable... Probably I´ll never have 100% scaled cockpit cause of space reasons and others but at least i wish to have the real Mc Coy feeling...
Now this is just my opinion but one thing I know everybody agrees with me is the fact that we want realism at least in our flight Characteristics from the planes we are flying!! Trust me guys I ´ve flown some addons that I wish in the real world we had a performance like that also exagerated aircrafts that stall at 50kts and make MACH 2!! LOL! But still I have flown amazing aircraft with amazing realistic characteristics... for Example PMDG A320 quite old software but it handles just like the real A320 I fly... well not exactly but they where damn good in developing it and the flight characteristics are very similar still a lot of work I wished they could have kept working on it...
Now the other day I was in the lobby of our Hotel In Los Angeles and I spoke to a F/O from LAN CHILE he flies 767 I asked him without telling him I was a FS Freak what was it to fly the 767... Well he said Have you ever played with LEVEL D 767 on Flight simulator... Basically the same thing... I was very impressed cause I have made the right choice for a sim and software...

Having a realistic flight model I think is the ultimate Must for any sim whether it is a Screen in front of you and Throttle and stick or like the 737 Full motion sim the Spaniard guys developed (WHICH THEY URGENTLY NEED TO LEARN TO FLY ;)) ! Look for those add ons or planes that will help you achieve that goal!! And trust me when you touch a Level D sim someday you´ll see no Difference!!

Regards,

Roberto

[Yoshi]

I'm going to get as much realism as possible - for me ;)
As Bob already said, it's all about compromises and money or other limitations. So here are mine:
- no "plug and play", I'm going the Tim Taylor way
- I'm born in Germany, so that Magenta thing looks like Telekom to me. I don't like Telekom.
- Switches are meant to switch thinks on or off, not to w*** over them. So the cheap ones (not the liliput things though) are good choice.

(for all those statements: no offense meant ;))

A few other things which are important for my (damaged) mind:
- if it isn't fun I don't invest time and money, things don't break if I leave them untouched for a month or so.
- always remember how the real thing feels like. I won't achieve this, so I'm not supposed to try.
- don't build a church, it's just another kind of an oversized keyboard for computer beginners which can't handle shortcuts.
- big note to myself: take at least one year planning. It's necessary.

Oh, and I'm going for 100%. 100% fun. :cool:
Realism? Up to 85%, but this totally depends on my phantasy when sitting in my cockpit. You have to stop thinking "this is rubbish, I have to rebuild this and that... bah, this switch doesn't feel right...". If you deiscover such things in your head try the following (again, it's phantasy):
Invite a child, about 9 years old. Allow him/her to use your body to reach all those switches. Feel the joy when switching things on and off, help a bit to get things up and running. Hear the engines running up? Wah, I never really did this... just let me listen to that sound, let me feel those vibrations for a minute...
Play around with the throttle, there are no rules. Power... arrrrrrrr...
Ok, little friend, I'll take you to the runway, then we'll have some real fun!
Lining up for takeoff... a big moment in your life. You're going to leave everything behind and below. Head for the skies.
Some of you want to get some checklists done, leave it. Sure, take care about the engines when applying full thrust. But the child is in command. I promise, you will feel the Gs when rotating.

Cheers

Yoshi

[Tomlin]

Yoshi- You hit the nail on the head my friend with nearly all of your reply. Actually, several of you did, but Yoshi- the part about getting a child (or ANYONE that comes over to visit)- it will really remind you of what we have sitting at our disposal 24 hours a day. People freak out when I show them FS9 at a Flight Scenery or FlyTampa airport. I cant imagine how they will react when they sit in a partially enclosed cockpit.

In response to Bob's comment about me being in frustration- Im not sure what he was alluding to unless it was about the trouble I've had with a certain interface card supplier who swore I was doing something wrong in the programming and low and behold, it wasnt me that was the dummy but the software genuinely has an issue! That's all I will say about that. Other than that, Ive had nothing but a great time working on this project and Im very glad that I switched from the B737NG, although I'd still love to have one, one day if money and space allows.

The reason I chose higher than 85% is because I feel that I can get to 90% on this project. Like Dodiano, I want to really feel that I am stepping into the aircraft but of course there will always be limitations unless it is a real aircraft. Regardless, I am DRIVEN to take it as far as I can. However, as mentioned a million times already, switching aircraft from the NG to the LJ somehow magically allowed me to 'tone down' my expectations. I think it was mostly to do with the fact that there was a real 737 shell with all the goodies just waiting for me to purchase it only 20 minutes down the road from where we lived in Florida. I KNEW that it would be waay more real if I had that, but financially it would have set me back on the project for several years. Yes, I would have had a REAL shell with the original yokes, TQ, Seats, liner panels, pedals, etc. but then I wouldnt have had the means to complete it for years.

So, I switched gears, and you guys see how much progress Ive made just since July of this year. Amazing actually considering that total Ive spent less than $1200 on it all and almost $500 of it was paid for by selling unused stuff on Ebay.

I disagree with the comment on it's just $50 software and it's relativity to buildng a successful home flight sim, and in fairness to Bob, I know that he is well aware that it costs hundreds of thousands of dollars to create the FS software, so we must remember that the software is as cheap as it is because MS sells it to the masses and therefore the costs to us is much lower. If I had to, I would pay $500.00 for the FS software, I enjoy it that much. Of course, it would only be every so many years! :-) I have logged (which is much lower time than actually spent flying) over 1250 hours in MSFS and the return on my investment is huge.

When I started this thread and poll, I simply wanted to know how people felt about their drive to build as real as possible, but one factor that cant be defined is each person's idea of ultimate realism-apart from the real aircraft.

I have enjoyed seeing all of your responses!

[JBaymore]

- no "plug and play", I'm going the Tim Taylor way


Ah....... you too!

I have the Binford Mega Simpit Panel Cutout Saw with the titanium/uranium alloy blades and the 300 HP DC MHz direct drive motor. Works great. ;)

best,

.................john

PS: Anyone got a band-aid?

[Yoshi]

Eric:

I think I messed up that child-thing. What I meant:
it's all about remembering we're children. Remember your childhood. Do you still have an open mind when playing this game?

So it's not about getting or inviting real children, it's about feeling, enjoying and acting like a child sitting in a cockpit for the first time. Without grown-ups.

Hope this is understandable now, if not I'll try again :D


Cheers

Yoshi

[Bob Reed]

Yoshi, YES!!! That is what I am talking about! Tomlin I am talking about your 737! You became so frustrated you abandoned it! When I show people my setup they go WOW!!! And then like I said they tell me I am nuts. The few who have sat at it just can not believe what I have built. Just helps me to keep my prospective.

[Tomlin]

Thanks Bob, I see now.

Yoshi,

Nah, I didnt take it that you meant you enjoyed having children sitting in your lap! I just took it to mean that when you have a child, or any visitor for that matter, their reaction is a good way to remember just what it is we have at our disposal.

[David Rogers]

Interesting thread folks.

Realism for me, cannot be quantified. What increases realism for one person would mean nothing to the next man. A strong example for me would be scenery; I have never gotten the add-on scenery bug and my entire FS world is the default one. This would horrify some people but to me, as long as I have clear, focussed textures on my projector, nice 3D clouds and good weather, and some autogen buildings as I come in on approach, I am really not excited by "oh look, there's Wembley stadium" or advanced representations of every detail at a given airport. In my eyes, advanced scenery simply pulls frame rates and smoothness down so it's adverse to my priorities within the sim.

I feel similarly about aircraft exterior models - I find some of these 'rivet counters' bonkers ("the nose isn't round enough!" crew), as I rarely look at the exterior of the plane because for me, simulation and realism are about being in the cockpit, simulating the procedural operation of an airliner.

But then others have different views and priorities. I guess that's what makes our hobby so interesting. On the one hand you have the 'Aspergers' types like me to whom an after-start checklist typed up on MS Word adds more realism than Ultimate Terrain coverage of all of Europe and North America. And then you have those who will have an FS world that is perhaps 75% add-on scenery but still fly default or 'lite' aircraft models.

I am happy with my default world and my investments to increase realism are based around the aircraft and the simulation!

....but I don't think I could put a % to my realism aim. :)

[AndyT]

Now that I read other responses I have to say that I'm not positive but I think Yoshi meant the 'inner child'.

[Yoshi]

Andy: Exactly!
That was the expression I missed.

Cheers

Yoshi

[pdpo]

Previous posters couldnt have said it better then me. Realism is very subjective and
true realism can only be obtained in the real thing. For the rest it is all said by the title of our hobby...simulation.
For me personal, this is also steered by the budget constraints, I just want to try to get the feeling that I'm inside a cockpit .. and not behind a computer with keyboard and mouse.
I choose the airbus because I like the layout and the fly by wire approach. And because its easier due to the stick.
And as people said it before, when I got visitors they go wow...but I noticed by myself that
after a while my own wow effect decreases and I try to get more realism in it to keep my own wow effect high....

Greetz peter

[Michael Carter]

I'm not sure mine will ever wear off.

[AndyT]

BSW knew in his head why we build sims, now he knows in his heart.

[JBaymore]

.......but I noticed by myself that
after a while my own wow effect decreases and I try to get more realism in it to keep my own wow effect high....

Greetz peter

A very astute observation.... and the source of the "addiction" quality of this hobby. We are all "realism wow" junkies! ;)

best,

...................john