Why I decided to leave this forum

[mauriceb]

In my last post in the topic 'Airbus panels', I said that would be my last post. But I got to know many very nice people in here and I feel I owe an explanation to them since they may not have read an Airbus post if they are building a Boeing Sim. Hopefully this will clarify my reasons and maybe improve the atmosphere for all the people here.

I decided to leave because on many occasions, I have seen cheap shots being taken at FDS and this can only hurt the Sim community, especially when there clearly is a personal vendetta by some members, including some of the IFSBI staff against FDS. I said I now felt un-welcome here & with all due respect for Bob Reed's opinion, I do not think enough is being done to stop the bashing.

The various posts on the ‘Airbus panels’ topic are only the tip of the iceberg. Time & time again, I have seen sarcastic & even sometimes derogatory comments about a company which I have got to know quite well and which were totally unjustified in my opinion.

Bob, it is true that I wasn't personally attacked, but frankly I would much prefer that as I'm very capable of defending myself. I think I have a very good command of the English language and I can certainly detect sarcasm, innuendos and half truths in many previous post whenever someone mentioned FDS.

I feel un-welcome because these posts attack someone whom I know personally and for whom I have the greatest respect, and who has made an incredible contribution to this hobby. I'm not saying that either because I live practically next door to FDS. I do not get preferential treatment in any way, shape or form. I have waited just like everyone else for parts, and in fact, because of my close association with Peter, sometimes even longer than others since Peter knew I would be more patient.

FDS is not a charitable organization; they are in business to make money like every other business. Sometimes, they have to make difficult decisions since their growth has been phenomenal and that has very often made it very hard for them to fill all their orders in a timely manner, or to satisfy every customer who wants a particular, one of a kind special part worth a few dollars and who demands an instant response (and there are many, many of those).

I always considered this forum a great forum with great people but I cannot in good conscience participate in it any longer until I see a real effort that this type of bashing is no longer permitted as evidenced by such posts being removed immediately by the moderators.

There is nothing wrong with someone relating a particular bad encounter with any vendor as long as they present all the facts and not just a wide generalization. If your dispute is because a unique panel took 6 months for delivery, or whether the vendor would not build something special just for you, it has no place in this forum. If your dispute is because you paid for something and never got it for instance, then by all means, warn others if you wish.

In conclusion, thank you to all the people who helped me on several occasions, and hopefully I was also able to help some people occasionally. If anyone wants to find me, you can do so in the FDS forum

Happy building everyone,

Maurice

[Trevor Hale]

Sorry to see you go Maurice, I hope one day we will see you again.

Best regards,

Trev
Mycockpit.org - Administrator

[Matt Olieman]

Hate to see you go Maurice, you've been a fantastic support to MyCockpit.org and it's fellow builders.

In case you don't know, all but one of my panels of my A340project are FDS's. I have Peters original A320 Project shell, side sticks, and Rudder pedals. I may not necessarily see eye to eye with Peter, but I certainly admire his contributions and achievements regarding our hobby.

MyCockpit.org (IFSBI) started 2 years ago today, with the intent of Flight Sim Builders helping each other. That we've accomplished.

Occasionally someone will make derogatory remarks regarding vendors. What you don't see behind the scenes is our intent to stop this from happening. We will not allow bashing!!! That's not our objective, our objective is Flight Sim Builders helping each other.

[Gsey]

I remember the spat that happened on the Avsim forum quite a few years ago between "deleted by administrator" has made quite a few derogatory remarks towards FDS on these forums. As a team member I would like to see these types of posts by him stopped as it cannot promote that flightsim company which goes against everything this website was built for as we all know.

As with Maurice I have been a very happy FDS customer for many years.

Gary

[737NUT]

"The various posts on the ‘Airbus panels’ topic are only the tip of the iceberg. Time & time again, I have seen sarcastic & even sometimes derogatory comments about a company which I have got to know quite well and which were totally unjustified in my opinion."


So you are allowed an opinion when no one else can???? Not everybody has had "great" dealings with said people. They are allowed an OPINION just like you.


Glad Chevy didn't quite making cars because Ford people say they are junk! :)


Same principle here, opinions will be found everywhere, ignore them by sharing your good examples and not running to hide.


On a side note,
I have spent SEVERAL THOUSAND dollars with FDS so i have a RIGHT in the USA to voice my opinion. :)

[Jackpilot]

737Nut
Money does not give you any right whatsoever....even in the USA! Pure and simple.

[737NUT]

737Nut
Money does not give you any right whatsoever....even in the USA! Pure and simple.

Are you kidding me??! That gives me the right because i have first hand knowledge of products and customer service.

Now if i was going on internet gossip only, then you would have a point!

Like Matt said, we now have choices and to each his own on what companies products they deceide to use.

[mounty]

Hi,

Not everyone has the same experience with a supplier and it's ok to state an opinion based on the service and quality.

I spent a few dollars with FDS at the very beginning of building a sim, however I found them to be somewhat obnoxious and they still haven't sent me a part I complained about 18 months ago. My own experience helped me to decide not to purchase further parts from them.

I would like to hear what individuals have to say about suppliers - it may help prevent a bad experience of which I have heard several over the last 2 years, and I've taken note of them and avoided some suprises

We have a thing called freedom of speech - so allow for diverse opinions.

Rob

[AndyT]

Since we are all saying what we think, let me chime in here.

1. This thread should be locked.

2. To help prevent this kind of thread in the future, we should have a 'Rate the vendor' section where the vendor receives a score from 1 to 10 on various factors that make for a good experience. No individual comments should be allowed to prevent any possibility of legal harrassment from either side.

3. A link should be on the front page 'Vendor Ratings' for anyone that wants to find it.

4. Limit the number of times someone can rate a vendor to once. No stacking the deck allowed.

I really hate these kinds of threads because no matter how well-meaning the original poster the very nature of the post itself is inflamatory and is exactly the kind of thing that can destroy the family athmosphere of a forum.

Free speech is a right given to us by the US Constitution and so we like to say what we think no matter how much it might hurt someone. That needs to end. Its just one of the many things that are destroying our world. We must learn to be considerate of others even if we dont feel like it. Thats what civilized people do. Idiots and fools fly off the handle and start fights and flame wars. I pray in the name of Jesus that the membership here is not a gang of barbaric fools.

I truly hope that there are no more responses to this thread and my suggestions are implemented.

[Kennair]

Here, Here AndyT.

No matter where you're coming from there is just too much hate and derision in the world. Please lets not make this happy and enjoyable forum, which reflects the happy and enjoyable pass time we all enjoy also become a vehicle for that derision.

I understand Maurice's frustration. I'm building a Pilatus PC12!, how many comments, good or bad, are made about that, far less the availability of custom panels! But at the end of the day, it just serves to inspire creativity. We're really all out to help each other, even FDS.

BTW. I love the Airbus.

Ken.

[Trevor Hale]

Hey Andy,

If you don't mind I would like to respond to your suggestions, so I will Try.



Since we are all saying what we think, let me chime in here.

1. This thread should be locked.



At this point. There has been no attacks on individuals, or direct slander towards a company or person, so Locking the thread would be acting as a form of censorship.

In the past we have Locked threads, when the posting switched from attacking a product or a supplier (ie. Project Magenta) To directly attacking an individual supporting such a supplier.

If that Occours here, where someone deliberatly turns the finger on someone and users slanderous or defamatory comments. We will lock the thread.




2. To help prevent this kind of thread in the future, we should have a 'Rate the vendor' section where the vendor receives a score from 1 to 10 on various factors that make for a good experience. No individual comments should be allowed to prevent any possibility of legal harassment from either side.



I like your idea about a rate the Vendor section, and we should consider this as an alternative, however As previously stated by another individual, it is only fair that you can describe "PERSONAL EXPERIENCES" We do not accept hearsay as a form of "PERSONAL EXPERIENCES"



3. A link should be on the front page 'Vendor Ratings' for anyone that wants to find it.

4. Limit the number of times someone can rate a vendor to once. No stacking the deck allowed.


If we add the poll, it can appear on the front page, as well as by default people can only vote once. :)



I really hate these kinds of threads because no matter how well-meaning the original poster the very nature of the post itself is inflamatory and is exactly the kind of thing that can destroy the family athmosphere of a forum.


You are 100% right. The issue is people have a bad day, and when they read the forums, they misinterpret what that actual goal of the conversation is. I see this issue every day at the office with email. I for one know, never reply to an email at the office unless you have well rested and consider all the possibilities that the writer meant. I have been caught many times from snapping back at someone, only to find out that I wasn't focusing on the core element.



Free speech is a right given to us by the US Constitution and so we like to say what we think no matter how much it might hurt someone. That needs to end. Its just one of the many things that are destroying our world. We must learn to be considerate of others even if we dont feel like it. Thats what civilized people do. Idiots and fools fly off the handle and start fights and flame wars. I pray in the name of Jesus that the membership here is not a gang of barbaric fools.

I truly hope that there are no more responses to this thread and my suggestions are implemented.

Free speech is a common element throughout many countries in the world, but people need to understand what the rules of free speech are, for instance, you cannot threaten to kill someone and claim free speech, just doesn't work that way. Ultimately, people are responsible for their actions. No if's and's or But's.

It is a shame that people get so upset over hearing things they appear to not agree with.

Great closing Andy, I for one, wish more people thought as you do, people need to realize this is a hobby for most, and therefore if your not having fun..... maybe it is time to find a new hobby.

Best regards,

Trev

[David Rogers]

I don't know anything about the source of this problem but I would offer some observations:-

- I did read the "airbus panels" thread at the beginning and did think that some of the comments about FDS were a little immature in nature.

- What I personally find ugly about this post is that it seems to be spilling over into a political argument. Without meaning anything derogatory to my American friends, too many people are making statements like "...I can say that because this is the USA", or "...as an American". This is a forum with an international community, well represented from many nations and cultures. Americans, Canadians, Brits, Aussies, Dutch, Germans French, Indian, etc, etc, etc ...... I just don't think patriotic overtones belong here. Whether or not open free derogatory comments about vendors are allowed here is not down to the constitutions of the USA - it's down to the environment and rules that the administrators here want for the site!

Site owners of forums all over the globe make choices on how they want to run their forums - the extremes being a 'completely uncensored, say anything at all' style, and a 'Heavily censored, avoid all contention' style.

Let's not get carried away about human right of freedom being opposed !!

I have never dealt with FDS but I am sure they have a mixture of happy and less than happy customers out there. It's true of all vendors. Some people said to me "CP Flight are useless, they offer no support at all", yet I have spent £650 ($1300) in the last month with CP Flight and I find them absolutely exemplary in every way. Product quality, delivery times and costs, and support.

Perhaps in that specific thread, FDS were getting a harsh appraisal but in other forums people will talk of how good their experiences have been with them, I'm sure.

I'd just like to close by saying that in the 2 months that I have been on this forum, I have found it the most adult, balanced, genuinely helpful forum I've ever attended. There is virtually no flaming, no childish bickering, just like minded people helping eachother and sharing their enjoyment.

Let's protect that !

:)

[Matt Olieman]

David R, I'm with you 100%

I've got to tell all of you, we (the partners, team leaders, administrators) get tremendously frustrated when post like this are started. We have the power to delete ANYTHING, but we bite our lip and persevere.

I and the TEAM, would rather see this not happen and continue with our commitment to help others be the focus at MyCockpit.org.

David R, thank you for your wise words :)

I just wanted to add, I look at today's post, and except this thread, I'm exited and proud of it's contents. I see our mission being met. I thank those for ignoring this thread and going on to the business of building our dreams :)

[whoispankaj]

Get back to work(building the cockpit) guys ..Every thing is under control ..:D:D

Pankaj

[737NUT]

Trevor and Matt,
PERFECT wording in your post!! :)

I couldn't agree more. Not ONE thing was said directly to an individual or company that was THAT bad.

Come on guys! Loosen up and grow some thick skin!

What happens when a passenger complains your landing sucked! Do you cry and quit! :) :)

Well maybe if you broke the gear! LOL

[Westozy]

Hi all,

As a team member I am disappointed to see a member leaving over what I see as just frustration over a case of differing opinions and mis-interpretations.

I think what isn't being said here is that these negative comments towards our hobby's vendors are usually caused by a builder's own frustrations and impatience. This relatively new hobby of ours can be incredibly frustrating as we all know, we are all experimenting and trying to build our cockpits in many different ways. We have over 2,100 members and probably each member is using a different method to build their cockpit. There are no right or wrong ways to do it when you think about it. No company has yet seized the opportunity to provide an all up package to be able to build a plug 'n' play cockpit.

My own fledgling business "Aerosim Solutions", has already been attacked by a frustrated builder. I was told that my business was doomed to failure by this guy because I could not supply him with a Boeing throttle quad immediately because he had the cash ready. I work alone and I only have 4 contracts at the moment which will take until about March 2008 to complete because my magic wand is on the blink! These four contracts will completely recover every cent I have ever spent on my sim and I haven't placed an advertisement yet so I don't see any failure or doom for my business on the near horizon. Will I lose sleep over a lost customer? I think not as there are plenty more to take their place. I am sure FDS, FDT, PM or whoever are all in the same boat. We are all making unique parts that take an incredible amount of time to create and most customers expect perfection and want their products immediately, it's human nature. Fortunately, my current customers are patient and mature enough to be aware of the difficulties to be overcome producing these type of products. In fact they are all involved in the development of their parts and are helping me.

This is a minor hobby and it is true that the vendors are few, it is through no fault of a vendor that his waiting lists and lead times are long. I am not attempting to compete with any other vendor as I respect them all for helping our hobby grow, I just imagined that Aerosim Solutions could fill a few gaps here and there and it is astonishing to me that I have already received criticism. I choose to ignore the "bashers" as I'm sure the other vendors also do, we're all too busy to worry about crap like that.

To all the builders who are dumb enough to criticize a vendor, I suggest the alternative is that you go out to the shed and make your own throttles/panels/circuit boards/cockpit software etc. The vendor critics are the people who are generally suffering from their own defficiencies of IQ and are unable to see the big picture, condolences to you all!

My $58 worth!!!

[vidarf]

Guys, read Pankaj's post one more time. :)

There will allways be different opinions of any company, and people will allways experience the service different. Some has unrealistic demands for the service, others are in a rush - and other again don't care too much as long as they get what has been promised.

Using myself as an example: I am very satisfied with FDS and their products, but I am still thinking that they could be better. They lack that little extra which would make them perfect. The quality is very, very good, and the missing things lies in the details.
I also am a very happy customer of FlyEngravity, but I don't like the somewhat steep pricerange and the lack of information. On the other hand, the level of detail and quality is very, very good.
I am also a customer of Simparts, and I think their products are very affordable and of a great quality. I am not that satisfied with the finish on SOME products, but it is easy to fix that myself.

Overall: There are pro's an con's for every company doing business in our line of hobby. I am not afraid to express my opinion, and will do so as I see fit (promising to tell the whole story). If any company has a problem with that, they are not serious.

Maurice, which forums you prefer to use is up to you. But by posting this thread, you give me the impression that you are on some sort of crusade to stop critizism of FDS. That is not good, neither for you or for FDS. If you want to help FDS, then post your good experiences and tell people about it. Don't leave a forum because some people are posting their frustration. As I use to say: You have that friend which will tell you to not do business with that or this store, because of that and this. Knowing your friend, you subtract VAT and a generous discount, and you get the true story. Because said friend is known to be both demanding and exaggregating.
I work in a furniture store, and we are NOT afraid of the customers that get angry with us and "will tell all my friends about it". Because we trust that their friens know how the customer in question is like, and that they can make a sound judgement themselves.
So please give me the same trust. :)

Now go back to building, folks! :)


PS: Here's my latest experience with FDS (since FDS is in the wind in this thread):
I have ordered the MIP, MCP+EFIS and landing gear. The MCP and the landing gear has arrived. The MIP and the EFIS haven't, and it has been a couple of months since I placed the order. I knew that there was a big backorder. Peter Cos has been nothing but kind to me, and has answered my questions all the way. I know I'll have to wait some more, but in the end I will get my stuff.
Oh, and the MCP had a malfunction in the V/S wheel. FDS will cover all expenses to get the unit working again. You can't demand more than that! :) I am very satisfied with the service, even though things are somewhat slow going. But I am in no rush. :)

[Jackpilot]

Vidar
I agree with you .......just add one note:
This is not an industry as such and production schedules cannot be "industrial"
Peter Cos always refers to his "Shop" ..never mentionned "Factory"
Besides, FDS is solely a flightdeck parts manufacturer...they do not have any other activity to subsidize their business..no wonder production has to be run tight, and finally they have been THE innovator in our Hobby...takes money and time..and more demanding than following a trend.

Just to be fair Guys! ...I would not stand for them if I was not satisfied with their products and their extremely cooperative attitude.

End of that post for me..

[Geremy Britton]

AND THEY ALL LIVED HAPPILY EVERY AFTER! :p



(fingers crossed ;))