VNAV issues. [Archive] - MyCockpit.org

David Rogers

11-19-2007, 12:15 PM

Hi,

I use the full version of the PM Boeing-type suite. (GC, MCP, CDU).

I am having some problems with VNAV. (The first may not be a problem but the 2nd certainly is!).

On the 737NG, on take-off, if VNAV is engaged during the intial (V2+10) climbout, should the FD be commanding V2+10 upto the acceleration alt, then switching to 250kts pitch ?

I am finding that as soon as I engage VNAV, it goes to 250kts pitch climb.

Am I getting confused with the 767 and 747, and does the 737NG not provide V2+10 (or any climbout) as part of VNAV ?

My second issue is that occasionally, I will reach cruise but the VNAV cruise speed set sticks on 286 kts, and not the mach speed I have set in the VNAV CRZ page. (It is as if the VNAV thinks it's starting a descent as soon as cruise is reached!).

My 3rd issue is that VNAV will usually start to command a decent before the T/D point that is indicated on my ND. (Although the descent can be reasonably accurate so perhaps this is a CDU issue with the placement of the T/D psuedo waypoint?).

Thanks for any help!

michelmvd

11-19-2007, 04:59 PM

Hi David,
I can't speak for a B737, but this is how VNAV should work for the B744 and probally also for B767/777.

According SOP, VNAV must be armed on the ground (together with LNAV)

Command Speed VREF-20 after rotation

VNAV becomes active at 400ft RA

At the moment LNAV/VNAV becomes active, the TOGA modes end.

VNAV will command a pitch down at the preset altitude of the FLAP/ACCEL.HT in the TAKEOFF REF page of the CDU and command a VREF+100 speed.

(exemple : 10/1500 : aircraft speed will be set to VREF+100 and will pitch at 1500 Ft to start the flap retraction scheme.

VNAV will command CLB speed (or CLB+1,2) at the moment the preset factor in the THR REDUCTION (TakeOff page) is reached.

'exemple : FLAPS5 CLB1 : aircraft will come in CLB1 speed mode at the moment FLAPS5 are set. TO thrust mode (or TO1/2) ends at that moment.

All this must happen with or without A/P on. (F/D mode)

This is how it works in the real B744, VNAV behavior in PM for B744 is totally unrealistic.

B. Rgds
Michel

npbosch

11-19-2007, 05:09 PM

David Rogers

11-19-2007, 07:00 PM

Hi Michael,

Thanks, that was interesting, however the 737 differs quite starkly to the 744 in terms of VNAV annunciation and use. For example, you cannot arm VNAV while on the ground in the 737 in the way you can in a 76-, 74- or 77- . Actually Boeing offered an option for this for the 737 once but shortly after they abandoned this facility in the 737 and issues SOP revisions instructing any airlines that had the option on their 737 fleet never to arm VNAV on the ground in any of the 737 series. (You can read all about this at www.b737.org.uk (http://www.b737.org.uk) ).

Similarly I suspect that the VNAV on the 737 does not inlcude the 'climbout' phase as part of the VNAV profile.

In practice, on the PM 737 suite, I am gettng unrealistic performance on the climb phases of my flights - when I climb out purely on TO/GA to my acceleration altitude, then switch to VNAV the flight director command no climb at all, until the aircraft has accelerated to 250kts.

I don't believe this is realistic as, having spoken to a real 737NG pilot, the aircraft does not level out, at say 2000', while it accelerates from V2+10 to 250kts! ....I am told that the real aircraft's flight director will command a pitch that maintains a degree of climb, while still allowing the aircraft to accelerate to 250/10000.

This is also the case on virtually all "VNAV" armed FS add-ons, including PMDG737, 747, LDS 767, 737PIC, etc, etc.

I have to say that although I am generally quite pleased with PM overall, I find the CDU software the most disappointing from a realistic performance perspective. I definately feel that the PMDG and Level D CDUs are more accurate in terms of performance, with far fewer serious bugs.

The regular bugs I experience with the PM CDU include:-

- Loss of waypoints in LEGS and RTE pages, once a arrival, departure or rwy is selected in DEP/ARR page.

- Commanding a 'Direct to' for the current waypoint (by line selecting and re-entering current waypoint) often fails to work.

- Annoying 'repeats' of waypoints in the LEGS page; eg... POL, TNT, BUZAD waypoints are entered as part of route once, but will sometimes be repeated again; (ie... EGNT, RAPUM, POL, TNT, BUZAD, WELIN, POL, TNT, BUZAD).

- Erroneous Top of Descent calculations and waypoints.

- VOR1 and VOR2 frequencies that are 'hard entered' (manually) (with a 'M' annunciation) are regularly replaced with auto tuned frequencies!

But as I have said above, the worst of all is the loss of your en-route waypoints as soon as you select a SID, Star, Approach or Runway in the DEP/ARR page.

No-one can argue on the aesthetic qualities of the PM suites but we should not have to put up with some of these bugs given the price paid.

David Rogers

11-19-2007, 07:10 PM

Hi Michel,

As we have to deal with PM, could you write the same tutorial how you would do this with PM? And how we can change parameters with th cdu?
As I also have some pr.oblems with the cdu, I would be glad to have a good checklist on how to use it.

Hi Norbert,

According to one airline's SOPs, this is how you fly the 737NG on take-off and climbout (and how it should be done with PM):-

- Manually advance throttles to 55% N1.
- Allow engines to stabilize.
- Press TO/GA (N1 button if you have CP Flight MCP).
- [PM increases to t/o power too slowly, so it is best to advance throttles up to around 80% before hitting TOGA / N1].
- Light forward pressure on the Yoke.
- Hand on the throttles until V1 is reached.
- At VR smoothly rotate to 15 degrees.
- Select a roll mode, if one was not previously armed.
- Maintain TO/GA pitch (15 degrees) until obstacle clearance alt reached.
- Then continue climb at V2+10 (can be flown using FL CH or simply by referring to airspeed indicator).
- At acceleration altitude (usually between 1500-3000' AGL), reduce pitch to accelerate to 250kts (VNAV or FL CH set to 250 can be used).
- Continue climb at a pitch that maintains 250kts, until 10,000 is reached.
- Accelerate to FL climb speed (usually 290-330kts), until Mach transition level is reached.

.....bit fiddly init ? :)

Here's the A320 version:-

- Rotate at VR.
- 'NAV' will turn green in the annunciator.
- Follow the flight director... it will autimatically annunciate all of the above stages

:)

telly53

11-20-2007, 02:18 AM

@david rogers, 280 knots at cruise is very very fast. About mach .78 or something.

sas550

11-20-2007, 05:16 AM

David Rogers

11-20-2007, 12:41 PM

@david rogers, 280 knots at cruise is very very fast. About mach .78 or something.

Yeah absolutely agree, but the point is that it is not what is set up in the VNAV CRZ page..... That's the issue I have (it done it again last evening - CRX should have been .760 but on reaching cruise, the VNAV commanded 282 kts and even re-entering speeds into the CRZ page and the individual LEGS entries would not persuade it to change from 282kts! :-x

Come on PM - when will you release the next build to correct these nasty problems ?????

David Rogers

11-20-2007, 12:43 PM

Ther are other FD issues aswell and they are connected to the MCP software and not CDU. Ie if you take off only using To/Ga mode the mcp shoul go over to flc mode after passing thrust reduction alt. Doesn't happend wether the option is on or off in the ini file.

If you choose lnav it is supposed to give lateral guidance as soon as u push the button over 500ft. Doesn't happend until a vertical mode is manually set.

PM are aware of it but who knows when somethings new will come from them. Nothing new in several months now.

Starts to get abit annoying

Agree Anders - both of those drive me crazy. Is there even an option to stop the MCP commanding HDG SEL on take-off ? I hate this, I believe most 737s are set up to annunciate Lateral TO/GA (ie... wings levelled, runway heading) on take-off, not heading select.

Also, about FL CH again; when I engage it it always defaults on 150kts, not the actual speed at the time of pressing, as it should !!!!

I am annoyed to say that PMDG is far more accurate than PM in these regards. Boo !

Trevor Hale

11-20-2007, 12:45 PM

Yeah absolutely agree, but the point is that it is not what is set up in the VNAV CRZ page..... That's the issue I have (it done it again last evening - CRX should have been .760 but on reaching cruise, the VNAV commanded 282 kts and even re-entering speeds into the CRZ page and the individual LEGS entries would not persuade it to change from 282kts! :-x

Come on PM - when will you release the next build to correct these nasty problems ?????

Hi Dave,

This last thing you mentioned regarding the speed issue, I change all the time. I have no issues setting speeds in the CLB/CRZ/Des Pages, it always changes that on the MCP.

You should check this, because I know I do not have this issue you mention.

Trev

NicD

11-20-2007, 06:08 PM

After doing dozens of flights on Worldflight recently I was able to observe others using the sim and watch for trends. The VNAV, speed and takeoff issues mentioned here were all present consistently and a pain in the butt. It was embarassing actually - even though it was out of my control..

The last thing a crew needs is to be not trusting the MCP just after the plane has rotated. And its ok for crews to get MCP mode confusion, it's NOT ok for the software itself to get mode confusion! :roll:

It was also embarassing to have to brief crews to "switch the HDG SEL" before they made any major changes in the CDU (level, speed, star etc). C'mon PM... get embarassed with me please.. then fix it huh? It's not good promotion for you guys.

David Rogers

11-20-2007, 07:52 PM

Hi Dave,

This last thing you mentioned regarding the speed issue, I change all the time. I have no issues setting speeds in the CLB/CRZ/Des Pages, it always changes that on the MCP.

You should check this, because I know I do not have this issue you mention.

Trev

Hey Trev,

I am using the CDU with the Engravity hardware CDU - I wonder if the problem lies in the interface between these? I should add that this particular issue only happens intermittantly.... I think it is if the aircraft slightly shoots the cruise altitude while climbing (sometimes caused by excessive thrust in the climb, causing too high a rate of climb). If I smooth out the climb using V/S, near the crz altitude I can usually avoid this one.

Dave.

David Rogers

11-20-2007, 07:58 PM

It was also embarassing to have to brief crews to "switch the HDG SEL" before they made any major changes in the CDU (level, speed, star etc). C'mon PM... get embarassed with me please.. then fix it huh? It's not good promotion for you guys.

Nic - I'm really pleased you mentioned this one - I can't believe I missed it from my 'moan list' ....... any changes made to waypoints in the CDU, leads to the plane making uncommanded turns away from the LNAV course.... it's as if the plane is turning to fly back home!!

ie... tonight;

- Had a very short flight plan; EGNT > POL > TNT > CUMRI > EGGD.

- En route, I added CDF in between CUMRI and EGGD, executed, and altough the plane was supposed to be on a direct course to TNT (and still was after my modification), it turned around 180 degrees, uncommanded while in LNAV.

So as Nic said, you need to select HDG SEL first to ensure you are still flying in your intended direction after making any CDU LEGS changes!

Definately not good enough PM (do they ever read this?).... the CDU currently falls way short of my excpectations for paying £574 ($1140) dollars for this software.

:twisted:

NicD

11-20-2007, 08:34 PM

David... have you passed on your findings to PM support (email)? I think they're aware of many of these issues but it may help if more users provide thorough feedback (such as yours) directly to PM as well.

cheers

Bob Reed

11-20-2007, 09:37 PM

Nic - I'm really pleased you mentioned this one - I can't believe I missed it from my 'moan list' ....... any changes made to waypoints in the CDU, leads to the plane making uncommanded turns away from the LNAV course.... it's as if the plane is turning to fly back home!!

ie... tonight;

- Had a very short flight plan; EGNT > POL > TNT > CUMRI > EGGD.

- En route, I added CDF in between CUMRI and EGGD, executed, and altough the plane was supposed to be on a direct course to TNT (and still was after my modification), it turned around 180 degrees, uncommanded while in LNAV.

So as Nic said, you need to select HDG SEL first to ensure you are still flying in your intended direction after making any CDU LEGS changes!

Definately not good enough PM (do they ever read this?).... the CDU currently falls way short of my excpectations for paying £574 ($1140) dollars for this software.

:twisted:

To answer 1 of your questions.. No PM does not read this. And some of the other problems you report where not there until about the last 8 months.. So at one point the software was much more stable... Yes we are all waiting for an update to fix these!!

Trevor Hale

11-21-2007, 09:11 AM

Hey Trev,

I am using the CDU with the Engravity hardware CDU - I wonder if the problem lies in the interface between these? I should add that this particular issue only happens intermittantly.... I think it is if the aircraft slightly shoots the cruise altitude while climbing (sometimes caused by excessive thrust in the climb, causing too high a rate of climb). If I smooth out the climb using V/S, near the crz altitude I can usually avoid this one.

Dave.

I am not using an Engravity CDU, but what I can tell you is through out world flight, when I was instructed to increase or decrease speeds by ATC, I altered it in the CRZ Page, and saw an immediate change on the MCP. Each and every time commanding Higher or lower N1%. However, Keep in mind after you input the new speeds you need to follow them up with a couple presses of the enter key.

Possibly the light is not lighting on the enter key to show that they are required, however it is in fact required.

Trev

dnoize

11-21-2007, 09:28 AM

Hey Trev,

I am using the CDU with the Engravity hardware CDU - I wonder if the problem lies in the interface between these?

The CDU only acts as a "dumb" terminal. i.e. it only displays what PM is telling it to and sends back keypresses.
In no way it influences PM logics/vnav/cdu behaviour, nor does it contain any logics itself.

Stef

David Rogers

11-21-2007, 12:56 PM

Thanks all. :)

Nic - Yes I talked (via email) to Jonathan about the loss of waypoints problem(s). What I found strange is that he acted as though it was the fist time he was hearing about the issue (when I know for a fact it is a known issue).

The last correspondence was from me, asking him when these bugs would be addressed in a new build ............. never got a reply from thereon.

Trev - Hear what you're saying about the button presses and have needed to press enter a couple of times but doesn't affect this 'shooting the altitude' problem and the subsequent VNAV confusion. I think this particular one is down to some settings in the aircraft files around the aircraft weight being too light, which causes too high a climb rate (on a speed referenced climb), which then causes the 'shoot' ! :)

Stef - Absolutely agree. It's clear from the types of issues that the core of the problem is the PM software. The hardware CDU is fab in every way and I'm delighted with it :)

Just need to keep pestering PM and Enrico / Jonathan for a new build to address these (serious) CDU problems. (and some MCP bugs too). I like to have ultimate faith in my Flight Director but often find I need to ignore it, when currently using PM - that is not why I invested into the software. :(

pdpo

11-21-2007, 02:07 PM

Hi all,

Up until may of this year I send Enrico almost on a weekly bases emails containing a looonngg
problem list with bugs in the airbus software. Reading this post I notice the same kind of problems with the boeing software. Some problems I had got solved in previous build, but new
problems kept appearing. At some point in time I have given up ....
Last week I send enrico another email asking how he was doing and if there was still being
worked on the software for us hobbyists, non-professional customers.
His reaction was that he was still working on it and did not let us down but that new builds would be less frequent (more time in between). As a reply on that I send him again a list with the most annoying bugs but no reply....until now....

I just know that if we would do the same in our company we would be very fast out of the market which we address...

Greetz Peter

David Rogers

11-21-2007, 04:44 PM

Well one suspected bug to strike off the list is this VNAV CRZ Speed issue. As I suspected, the problem turned out to be a symptom of incorrect settings in the 737700 aircraft file. (I realised that the aircraft files that I was supplied with when I bought PM were not the most recent, which is strange in itself....). I downloaded the corrected aircraft files and the aircraft is now climbing at a more realistic rate.... and more importantly VNAV PATH (ie...speeds) is working great now, as the aircraft no longer 'busts' through the cruise altitude, which is what was upsetting the VNAV phases :). Thanks to all who helped on that one (especially my buddy Trev :)).

However, the bug list I am going to send Enrico this evening is :-

En-route waypoints lost whenever an arrival or departure is selected in DEP/ARR page. (very serious - almost a show stopper when flying on-line :twisted:).
TO/GA (vertical) does not revert to FLCH during climbout.
Initial LNAV capture on climbout does not behave realistically, when LNAV is armed on the ground.
Random heading changes in LNAV, where waypoints are modified. (very serious).
FL CH defaults to a speed of 150 when engaged at low altitude - should be the current speed.
T/D pseudo waypoint is occasionally not positioned on ND at the point where descent commences (and where PMsounds announces "descent". (the latter descent point seems correct).
VOR frequencies entered Manually into NAV/COM/XPDR page are replaced by auto-tuned settings. Where a frequency is hard entered into the CDU, and a 'M' is annunciated next to the freq, this setting should not be erased 2 mins later by a different autotuned setting!These are the consistant bugs that I am getting and so am confident to report to PM....

If anyone else wants to add any that they're pretty confident about, we could send through a 'complete' list to PM... ?

:)

**PS. When I indicate 'very serious' above, it's just highlighting what I believe to be the unacceptable bugs. It doesn't mean a loss of personal perspective as in : ........as 'very serious' as a triple heart bypass .....:mrgreen::mrgreen:

michelmvd

11-21-2007, 05:19 PM

Hi Norbert,

As we have to deal with PM, could you write the same tutorial how you would do this with PM? And how we can change parameters with th cdu?
As I also have some pr.oblems with the cdu, I would be glad to have a good checklist on how to use it.

I'm sorry, but in PM, I simple don't use VNAV for take off, as it is totally not realistic for B744. In PM, VNAV is only becoming active with activating A/P, which isn't correct at all. In manual mode (if VNAV was armed) , it should send its instructions via F/D when it comes activez at 400ft. When it become active when A/P is on, at whatever altitude, it set 250 knts as a speed target, which is of course not correct either. Vref+100 must be used here and only at the the altitude set in the t/o page for flap retraction issue. This is all for the B744, NOT for B737 for which the PM software is far more futher developped. The sad thing is that Enrico made me very clear some weeks ago that he hasn't any intentions to develop the software for B744 at the moment.

About what parameters are you talking Norbert, parameters in cdu can be normally changed in the cdu-ini file. When using a "B747" aircraft file for CDU, some pages are changing into to "B747" layout. But most parameters has no influence, as Flap setting - retraction speeds/altitude, CLB (reduction) speed altitude etc.

To David,
Just as many other I send countless messages with bugs reports to PM. Not a single one has been adressed the last 8 month's. Also note that some behavior is type related (I always speak for the B744), but issues as losing waypoints, aircraft returning to startpoint, STAR mixed ups , uncommanded radiofreq changes etc etc are common. The problem is, communication with PM isn't easy anymore these days and - this is my very personal feeling - the business is focussed on the real commercial site now and not on hobbiest anymore. There has been times it was totally different ... but there is very little we can change here. The forum has been set up a a purpose that PM users helps eachother with settings etc.

B. rgds
Michel

NicD

11-21-2007, 05:54 PM

David - do you know what settings in the 737700 file were the ones that made the difference?

David Rogers

11-21-2007, 06:00 PM

Nic - Not in totality.... the flap settings were different to the version that I had and that made a big difference in my climbout and approach performance (but obviously not the upper climb / VNAV performance).

N1 / N2 / Power settings are all different values in the latest file and all have improved the general 'handling' of the aircraft but alas, have not improved any of the CDU issues... :)

The figures in the tables are all different too so basically, I don't know where the heck the aircraft files I had originally came from!

:)

themis

11-21-2007, 06:15 PM

I agree to all the bugs that you mention. Totally strange why PM communication is very rare these days.

I bet that the proffesional systems that Enrico supports run a different version of PM. :roll: The bugs in the current version are elementary compared to products from other developers.

How a proffesional set up can work with these bugs?

michelmvd

11-22-2007, 05:39 AM

Hi Themis,

I bet that the proffesional systems that Enrico supports run a different version of PM. :roll: The bugs in the current version are elementary compared to products from other developers.

How a proffesional set up can work with these bugs?

Well as far I know, the big difference between "our" versions and the proffesional licences, is the excellent personal support and fine tuning on the spot by PM.
Also, for exemple, for raw data training, the proffesionals don't need the use of LNAV or VNAV , or long flight routes with up to date navdata for places all over the world, etc. This isn't the purpose of this kind of devices. I think it's a totally different approach to the system. Basic Raw data training, with a good fine tuned model, correctly tuned performance data and PM programs tuned to a specific machine/network, can be perfectly done with PM and the displays are very proffesional.
I'm sure flight schools or FBO's can be perfectly happy with it and its a rather cheap solution for them.

The problems are coming up, when we go to a specific type of aircraft and aircraft system logic. If I see the items from David about the VNAV behavior in a B738 comparing to the B744, then there is already a huge difference. B737 is still an old approach comparing to B744 and B775/6/7 system logic. I understand now even why I see some things happening here.
As PM has their own B738 cockpit project I'm very surpriced to hear that's even for the B737 it is not working as it should according the SOP's, because I know that Jonathan and Thomas Richter has an excellent knowledge about the little Boeing. Their B737 project and the B737 system logic file for PMSystem, really looks very proffesional and realistic to the details. Also the market reality is that there are a lot more B737 project's out there and demands for MCC training on that type of aircraft are high.

In the past, I could obtain from Enrico, he was starting to bring the software in line with the B744 profile - by ini-file options - but a lot was still to be done. He was very collaborative and open for suggestions in these days. I also must be honest that he wasn't seeing it as a priority and I never had to pay one cent extra.
Nevertheless, unfortunately, not long a go he let me know that he didn't has the intentions anymore to do that any further, which make me very sad after all these years of efforts and investments in the project. I invest thousands of Euros in to the project which now stays unfinished. My offer to pay for it as the proffesionals was also turned away.

I didnt really understand the reason for this, maybe it was a matter of personal characters not coming in line, but I suppose it was in the framework with his new company market strategy after he was closing his own forum and focussed more on the proffesional aviation world, which we see is now done more and more these days, by a lot of the support cockpitbuilders companies of the first hour, as FDS, PM etc.

Of course the common mentioned bugs are something else. These is really an unacceptable situation. It all started about 8 month's a go , less or no updates anymore at least for the hobbyiest, etc.

I think we will have to live with it, as people are free to direct their companies in a certain direction and we only can complain to each other as this isn't an official PM support forum.. The big issue for us cockpitbuilders is, there is simply no alternative.

B. rgds
Michel

themis

11-22-2007, 06:14 AM

Also, for exemple, for raw data training, the proffesionals don't need the use of LNAV or VNAV , or long flight routes with up to date navdata, etc.

I agree with you in that point, but PM Boeing/Airbus programming has a 10% of raw data involved and the rest has to do with auto flight.! (MCP/CDU etc).

Also a good twin engine prop can be a great raw data flight sim. Why to involve the CDU, LNAV VNAV? Also as you said there is a community that has, and spends huge amounts of money for systems based in PM software. Why these people are trend to be ignored?

Anyway, I think positive and belive that Enrico will come back with the most bug-free versions (after so long time);)

Themis

Just some thoughts
Regards

flightdeck

11-22-2007, 10:42 AM

Gentlemen,
I have purchased the "commercial license" and unfortunately my bug list looks exactly as yours.
It seems that in the "commercial version" the only difference is the license to use the software commercially, but there is no difference in coding.

Some more bugs from my side:

+ VNAV descend mode:
PM MCP stays in CRZ mode (as indicated in upper EICAS) and ignores the speed settings in the VNAV descend profile so we always have to use "SPEED" and "V/S" settings to avoid overspeed.

+ PM CDU + PM RCDU (running on two different client computers):
in 50% of our flights the RCDU freezes completely giving no chance to terminate and restart the program, even not by using windows task manager. Only rebooting the whole client helps, which is annoying!

PaulEMB

11-22-2007, 11:30 AM

As far as I am aware, there is only one version of the PM software per type.

The difference between professional and hobby licenses arose because of the high number of "hobby" users, who later turned out to be using the PM software to run a simulator in a commercial enterprise, which PM, rightly, in my view, decided was not fair.

This approach is not so different to single user EULA from MS, compared with Enterprise licensing.

I think we should be patient, as Jonathan has said here that updates will be forthcoming.

Check for posts from PM to see what progress we can expect.

eudoniga

12-14-2007, 11:28 AM

... well, at least we know there is no distinction between "A" quality and "B" quality PM software based on the license type !!!

Two or three months ago I exposed in another thread what looked like to represent - in my eyes, at least - some minor flaws (talking about the PM latest releases, exited last august, the CDU version was 392):

a) The takeoff page shows - incoherently, at the same time - the "pre-flight status complete" label, and the LSK links to pages which are supposed to have missing input ...

b) The PERF takeoff page doesn't automatically shift to ACT CLB - ACT CRZ - ACT DES pages as far as the flight progresses from phase to phase (when flying in VNAV mode), that's why they're all "ACT" pages ...

c) Whilst the "RTE" page becomes "ACT RTE" after EXECution, "PERF" page doesn't become "ACT PERF" after EXECution.

On another thread, read (mine and) Peter Dowson's posts about the unrealibility of the cabin signs annunciation on the GC EICAS page ...

Now, I know these are quite little things, and yet this is exactly my point: why not take the time and fix 'em ?

I am not complaining about the most difficult and intricated matters offered by the simulation of flight computers ... but the inaccuracy of some little details speaks in terms of either unwillingness or lack of time, and IMHO they're both regrettable aspects of a high profile product like PM.

I truly hope not every burden is laid upon a single man's shoulders, hands and brain (Enrico's) ... otherwise we'll all be flying B900s and A400s by the time these all things have been fixed.

But, to quote an upper post, "there is simply no alternative" ... :roll:

Cheers,

JonathanRichardson

12-15-2007, 09:46 PM

[QUOTE=sas550;45506]Ther are other FD issues aswell and they are connected to the MCP software and not CDU. Ie if you take off only using To/Ga mode the mcp shoul go over to flc mode after passing thrust reduction alt. Doesn't happend wether the option is on or off in the ini file.

Hi

The above is incorrect for the 737. The only time FLCH will come on "automatically" is if you activate one of the AP in this phase of flight. If you have ops information that is different please send it to me via e-mail. It goes against my understanding of this systems which I always cross check but if there is really a real world indication of this I am very interested to see it.

Regards
Jonathan Richardson

JonathanRichardson

12-15-2007, 09:59 PM

TO/GA (vertical) does not revert to FLCH during climbout.

Hi

Please note on the 737 it is called LVL CHANGE not FLCH (in our logics). The above I have no information on and I do not believe the statement to be correct based on what I know of 737NG ops. There is no automatic level change unless the AP is engaged. Please do send me further ops info and we can look at it and cross check - but it goes against my understanding of the system - are you sure you are not mixing a/c types? Or perhaps some special airline option? I am sure I have stated this to you two weeks ago in an e-mail and at that time I asked for confirmation and got no reply on the issue.

>Initial LNAV capture on climbout does not behave realistically, when LNAV is armed on the ground.

Never had a single compliant with hundreds of hours of flight time - training captains to first officers / line pilots - can you be more specific please? I do not seen any abnormal behaviour myself either.

>Random heading changes in LNAV, where waypoints are modified. (very serious).\

This is a known issue and has been discussed - already corrected in next update.

>FL CH defaults to a speed of 150 when engaged at low altitude - should be the current speed.

I checked this with x3 previous builds and can not re-create - I suspect some kind of hardware write back or something.

>VOR frequencies entered Manually into NAV/COM/XPDR page are replaced by auto-tuned settings. Where a frequency is hard entered into the CDU, and a 'M' is annunciated next to the freq, this setting should not be erased 2 mins later by a different autotuned setting![/COLOR][/LIST]

Just use MANUAL - as per my e-mails to you.... not sure why this has to be repeated.

Regards
Jonathan Richardson

Thunder175

12-23-2007, 12:46 AM

Thomas Richter

12-23-2007, 05:05 AM

This may be a stupid question but am I the only one who experiences an overspeed condition when on a VNAV descent? It seems it doesn't change the mach hold to IAS hold so it will just drive on holding a high mach number unless I hit the SPD INTV button.

Maybe I'm doing something wrong here since I'm new to the software. Any ideas? :oops:

If you use FSX make sur you did set the following (from our News section)

29/09/07 BOEING
FSX & PM MCP
At this time, to use the MCP software with FSX you will have to disable the AP gauge in the FSX panel.cfg of the aircraft type you are using for flight with the PM / MCP software. Generally if not using a panel at all in MSFS, then the only section you need in the panel.cfg is the section referring to [VIEWS] everything else can be deleted. Please *always* keep a back-up of your original files in case you have to revert back.

Make sure you have this line in your FSUIPC4.ini (only FSX)

[General] section
FiddleMachForPM=Yes

Thunder175

12-23-2007, 12:34 PM

nope I am using fs9. but I am using a dummy panel folder with nothing in it. can that still be the problem??

flightdeck

12-23-2007, 02:22 PM

Here are my observations (FS9 + Cockpitsonic Hardware + PM Software):

After passing T/D in VNAV mode the plane starts to descend as expected but remains in CRZ mode (indicated in the Upper Eicas) ... on the speed tape the speed reduction according to FMC (CDU) settings is properly shown (magenta arrow) but the plane is accellerating in cruize speed into overspeed.

Pushing the throttles back to idle, I don't feel any power or resistance on the servo motors so it is clear that there are no inputs coming to the throttle's servos.

For a proper descend path I have to use SPEED mode and V/S settings according to the descend page of the FMC.

I have already reported this to PM and to Cockpitsonic and been informed that there will be a meeting with Enrico shortly to settle this poblem!

Thomas Richter

12-23-2007, 03:12 PM

nope I am using fs9. but I am using a dummy panel folder with nothing in it. can that still be the problem??

An empty panel folder doesn't work for FS9 because it uses then the "next best" one.
Use just a panel.cfg in it where are only the views defined, like I described before.

Thunder175

12-23-2007, 03:17 PM

An empty panel folder doesn't work for FS9 because it uses then the "next best" one.
Use just a panel.cfg in it where are only the views defined, like I described before.

Sweet I'll give that a shot. I'll report back here and let you know how it worked. Thanks for the help!

carlos hermida

12-24-2007, 02:06 PM

Thunder175

12-24-2007, 03:13 PM

Hi Thomas,

I am using PMDG 700/800 without the panel folder with PM. I tried to use your panel.zip file below but my front view it is to UP, so how can i adjust that? I like the correct wing views setting that you set i in that file and want to use then:roll:

Ditto on the great wing views. To lower your view without changing the values in that config file just hit Shift-Enter once. This should lower the view to a lower angle. I noticed that as soon as I fired up the sim and how high it appears. I'll have to change the values in the config file to meet my liking.

On a seperate note, I haven't been able to fully test the VNAV issue I was having in a previous thread of mine since my last flight was to short. VNAV doesn't like short low level hops in general anyways! On a trip from KEWR to KDCA I had to us V/S to get to my cruise altitude of FL220 since I'm guessing the flight was long enough for the computer to compute a Top of Climb value, and it had all my waypoints at the first altitude restriction in the NATNL1 STAR (12000 at TRISH). Is it supposed to do that? On long flights it works just fine.

carlos hermida

12-25-2007, 09:42 PM

Thanks Thunder, will try to adjust that tomorrow :D

Happy Christmas !!!

Thomas Richter

12-26-2007, 04:02 AM

Hi

[Quote]
Ditto on the great wing views. To lower your view without changing the values in that config file just hit Shift-Enter once. This should lower the view to a lower angle. I noticed that as soon as I fired up the sim and how high it appears. I'll have to change the values in the config file to meet my liking.
[\Quote]

There are xxx_DIR= definitions like

VIEW_FORWARD_DIR= -7.5, 0, 0

first value
-7.5 = 7.5 deg up against the normal view

third value
0 = 0 deg view angle, straight forward
(90 deg would be right and 270 deg would be left)

So if your view is to up just use may be 0 instead of -7.5, a positive value goes more down than the default view.

Brian

12-30-2007, 10:41 AM

Hello,
I tried all to get a nearly real flying 738 using PM software. I can also confirm all the bugs stated in the forum for such a long time. There is still no way to use VNAV or all the other software related functions to make a nearly realistic onlineflight. To do that I have to use the PMDG 738 software on a desktop. But I am a cockpitbuilder. It is not my job to test and develop a software to make the easyest functions working. PM System is not finished at all. The CDU is not usable to make one realistic flight. VNAV is far away from

working relistic.

Brian

12-30-2007, 10:45 AM

Sorry,
that was finger trouble...
I will wait ,what else can I do, for some updates. Otherwise I have to change to Airbus using a nother software.
So, all the best and a happy new year
Brian

carlos hermida

12-30-2007, 11:15 AM

Hi Thomas,

...using what you suggested for front view (zero degree) worked perfectly for me, thnx ;)

James Twomey

12-30-2007, 02:34 PM

Thomas,

Thank you for the Panel.cfg. Using the stripped down version of the Panel.cfg removed all the small little problems that i was experiencing with FSX aircraft interaction with CPflight's MCP and PM Software.

It is such a real treat to fly again. I was one that jumped to FSX as soon as it came out and never really got it to work smoothly until now. So between your panel and Bob Reeds help, I am flying the blue skies again without having to bang my head in frustration for the minor problems that took away from the fun.

telly53

12-31-2007, 12:09 AM

i hear you brian, we use a three man crew to fly a full size deck online and its very dissapointing. pm have a commercial licence aswell. surely this would perform its duties correctly? i remember when the announcement was made to steer the pm ship slightly away from the home user. hope this is not a reflection of that. i love and have the utmost respect for pm. its a wonderful and complicated little piece of software. hope it gets resolved soon

sas550

01-01-2008, 01:20 PM

[quote=JonathanRichardson;47011

The above is incorrect for the 737. The only time FLCH will come on "automatically" is if you activate one of the AP in this phase of flight. If you have ops information that is different please send it to me via e-mail. It goes against my understanding of this systems which I always cross check but if there is really a real world indication of this I am very interested to see it.

Regards
Jonathan Richardson[/quote]

Disregard my statement. I did some homework and you are correct. It isn't supposed to happend.

alexven

01-12-2008, 02:17 PM

RENE' you're absolutely right!

I'm using the same cockpitsonic stuff (Throttle, mcp, efis and MIP) and I have exactly the same problems you're having.
The servos of the throttle are connected only in VNAV CLB during wich N1 mode is active on the MCP. During VNAV CLB everything works fine for me
But as soon as VNAV PTH is engaged the servos are disconnected and the position of the throttle levers seem to conflict with PM CDU autothrottle settings. For me it's actually impossible to use VNAV during cruise and descent.:cry:
BYE !:o
Alessandro
alexven@libero.it

Thomas Richter

01-12-2008, 02:30 PM