Just a random thought or two...

[Michael Carter]

With all of the plu-n-play devices for builders out there like FMC, radio heads, nav heads, and the like, what are the chances that someone could come up with a stand alone plug-n-play weather radar display?

I searched last night knowing that my chances of finding anything were about zero, but I did anyway.

A stand alone GPS is possible by extracting the GPS data from FS to display on a unit that has a serial or USB input, but what about WX radar?

What would that take software-wise to be able to offer something like this?

How is this replicated in the multi-million dollar Level-D sims?

Could a real radar display be modified and fed data extracted from FS in some way? This is way over my head, but I'd be interested in hearing some opinions on feasability and integration of something like this.

Mike has a working RWR display from an F-16 so it shouldn't be too far of a stretch to do the same with weather...should it?

[David Rogers]

I would say that plug n play is out, but I would imagine it would be feasible to use something like Reality XPs weather radar add-on, linked into a PSOne screen....

www.reality-xp.com

[Michael Carter]

I have that WX radar as installed with the DF727.

I was hoping for something stand-alone using this type software.

What about a single board computer with the Reality XP radar with a TFT that could be run on a network?

[David Rogers]

Yeah, I dare say that would be do-able actually ..... sounds like you have a new sub-project on your hands!

[Michael Carter]

I don't have the technical expertise to build something of this sort.

What I really wonder is why no one else has that does posses the know-how.

Single board computers and development kits are widely available and so are TFT developement kits. I wouldn't have any idea where to start with either one.

I just think this stuff up. I can't actually design and build it.

[AndyT]

Post me a link to the TFT development kits and I'll see what I can do.

[737NUT]

I'd be interested in one as well since i am also building a 727. :)

[Michael Carter]

TFT and single board computer kits are at www.Mouser.com

[AndyT]

I've been meaning to build a USB screen but I just have not gotten around to it yet. I'll look over the Dev-kit and see if anything meets my specs.

[Tomlin]

I don't have the technical expertise to build something of this sort...

I just think this stuff up. I can't actually design and build it.

LOL, Im right there with ya! I contacted a developer a while back begging them to create a networkable FMS to complement their other networkable products, but the answer was basically while it would sell very well, the amount of man hours to develop something like that was enormous, especially since his team was very small. I think that the wx radar is another example of this possibly.

Oh, how I wish that Reality XP (for you and others) would make their stuff networkable, and how I wish that Ernie Alston FMS software was networkable (for me and others).

If someone could just come up with a FMS/CDU package that was networkable and affordable, even if it was not quite as feature-rich as some of the other packages out there, it would SELL like crazy.

[Tim]

While not exactly plug and play, AOG's weather radar products can be displayed on a separate monitor or inside the PM nav display. Offsets are available for configuring switches.

http://www.addongauges.com/

I use it with the PMRJ. Support has not been the best lately, but the software does work.

[Trevor Hale]

LOL, Im right there with ya! I contacted a developer a while back begging them to create a networkable FMS to complement their other networkable products, but the answer was basically while it would sell very well, the amount of man hours to develop something like that was enormous, especially since his team was very small. I think that the wx radar is another example of this possibly.

Oh, how I wish that Reality XP (for you and others) would make their stuff networkable, and how I wish that Ernie Alston FMS software was networkable (for me and others).

If someone could just come up with a FMS/CDU package that was networkable and affordable, even if it was not quite as feature-rich as some of the other packages out there, it would SELL like crazy.

Tomlin,

What you need to realize is in your writings above. LOL If you have ever developed software you will see it isn't as easy as it looks. what lies beneath the visual aspects is very complex. What your are saying is basically this.

I wish someone would build me a house and sell it for a dollar. (yes indeed they would sell like hotcakes, but the amount of time, materials and efforts to create that house far outweighs the ability to sell it for a dollar). I wish that someone would produce a real CDU (Hardware) and sell it to me for 100 dollars instead of the 700 that everyone is selling it for. The fact of life is, time is money and with the amount of time required to program such a piece of software the odds of finding someone to do it for free or next to nothing is not a viable option.

The average computer programmer bills out at 65 bucks an hour. If you take this in to account I would guess the Project Magenta MCP/CDU is around 600 bucks. at 65 dollars an hour to program it you have only paid PM for 9.5 hours of programming. Therefore I submit that if the project took Enrico 2,000 hours to program it he would need to sell 217 copies of it just to break even.

I agree for a hobby, we all want things cheap, however if you look at it from the other side of the fence, what would be the point if you were a developer to give things away for free. This is not a hobby for PM, AST, or any other software manufacturer. It is a way of life, and a full time job to earn money for their family.

Would you goto work everyday and work for next to nothing in wages? Heck no. you wouldn't. You need money to survive, it is no different for software developers.

Hope that makes sense!

Trev

[Tomlin]

Hi Trev

Hey, there's no need to justify the costs- Im just saying that I believe that if the price point would come down a bit, then I believe in the end more copies would be sold. And I agree, it's very expensive to develop all this stuff and for many it is there career/livley hood. I dont expect a $100 anything for just a dollar. And, if I were to sell all the stuff I just got thru building for this sim of mine, it would be worth way more to me than to the buyer just because of all the TIME that was spent building and developing. So, I totally agree with what your saying, but Im saying that if the price point could be a bit lower, the end for the seller would be a good return on investment I believe. Also, it is obvious that some freeware developers can program some enormous items that work decent- It makes me think about other items out there where the main work is done, but you just put in the additional hours to make it networkable and then charge for the difference if needed.

[Matt Olieman]

The good news is... our Flight-Sim Building hobby is growing, so possibly, eventually prices will come down :) :)

As you used PM as an example, when he started coding (in the beginning) there was only a hand full of builders, and certainly his software(s) has gotten much more complex then he ever expected.

The whole software development process really amazes me, the time and effort and very little return. I'm grateful for all the software we have available in our flight-sim hobby :)

[Tomlin]

The whole software development process really amazes me, the time and effort and very little return. I'm grateful for all the software we have available in our flight-sim hobby :)

Very much so. Think back 5 years ago, then think back to 1999 when Kevin Saker, Ray S. and Mike Lehkamp and a few others were building some of the first home setups. THAT was when I was introduced to this addiction. Here it is now the end of 2007 and I am finally getting a sim up and running that looks and works really nice, but with much less effort due to the plethora of soft and hard ware that is now available to simmers. It's almost to the point now that we could build a full sim if we had a week's worth of full days to work on it!

[Geremy Britton]

hi andy,

you mentioned usb computer monitors?
could you tell me more never seen before.

[AndyT]

I've been thinking of making a small monitor that interfaces thru USB. It will most likely also need a power adapter but the signal will be USB. I want to add a control pad to it also so that it could be used as a GPS, or a CDU or any number of other things.

[Michael Carter]

After a second round of searching take a look at what I found: http://www.cambertx.com/RadarSimulation.html

I wrote then an e-mail requesting some clarification concerning the interface and hardware. Specifically, the display head.

USB plug-in is an option for a stand alone display.

If these guys offer this at an affordable price, they could have an entire market to themselves in the simulator community.

I have found no other company as of yet selling something like this.

[Geremy Britton]

usb monitors sound realy good certainly will be good for me. Something like a gps etc would be great cheaper way for this.

let me know how you get on i'm interested!
geremy.

[Michael Carter]

A stand-alone GPS is not a problem compared to the radar.

Any GPS that has a serial or USB port that recognises NMEA 0183 format input can be used to extract data from FS with a free-ware add on program.

The problem is the cost for something authentic to be installed in the sim. A Garmin Street Pilot won't cut it.

There are some nice panel mount units in the neighborhood of 3K with a large display.

If this company can provide WX radar for an FS based sim, I probably won't be able to afford it, but I want the information just the same.

[Michael Carter]

Here is the reply from an engineer at Camber Corporation about the WX radar simulator. I don't believe I'll be buying one in this life. Not at least until I see what the latest developement might be that he writes about toward the end of the e-mail.

Oh well. It was a nice thought.



----- Original Message -----
From: Pafford, Mike
To: Boeing727
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 7:51 AM
Subject: RE: Sensor Systems Division: Question/Comment from Cambertx Website


Dear Mr. Carter,


Thank you for your interest in our simulation products. And yes, we rarely deal with the general public – most of our systems are sold for use on flight simulators used by the commercial airlines and military customers.

The Camber WX radar simulation package can be sold as a software only package or as a turn key system. The software is set up to use a Camber video interface board which conforms to the ARINC-453 interface which is the standard physical interface to cockpit radar indicators. Our simulation generates data which is formatted to the ARINC-708 specification and in some cases our customers emulate the radar indicator and transmit the 708 data format over Ethernet – mostly that happens in research applications. A turn key package with a PC in a rackmount case with the ARINC-453 video interface, the software, storm library, etc. is around $25,000. A used weather radar indicator can typically be bought for around $5,000. So I assume we are out of your price range with our current range of products.

Microsoft has recently announced the ESP product which is basically MS FS with a license which allows use in commercial applications and provides some additional API controls. We are planning on developing simulation products based on ESP in the near future. So perhaps we will have a weather radar simulation which will be able to “plug and play” with FS in the future. So keep watching the web site for additional information.



Regards,

Mike Pafford
Engineering Manager
Camber Corporation
Sensor System Division