Autothrotlle and PM-MCP

[Lambis777]

Hello

I have make some test with the autothrottle and i have notice a strange behavior of the lever when is moving.

In flight engage the A/T switch
Lets say the Offset $088C (Is the left lever) takes a value 11,500 , THEN starting slowly decent until 6.000 or 7.000 value (the decent time is 5-7 sec) and THEN JUMPS in 1 second to a value close to 11,500.
And this continues all the time.

THE LEVER IS NOT STABLE.
the lever goes up and down.

Now, if i don`t use the PM-MCP and use the default MCP from the fs9 or the fsx everything working perfect.

i use the DC motor from OpenCockpit with SIOC code.

I don`t know if i explain my problem good.
I am not so good in English.

Regards
Lambis

[Lambis777]

Hi Again

Only me have this Problem?

The Throttles are not stable when the airplane is in climb take-off mode especially when i use V/S
The lever are slowly down and then jump fast up again.
In the CRUISE mode is better.
With the FLCH there is not exist this problem.


When i remove the Project magenta MCP and use the default MCP of fs everything are stable.

Is something wrong communicate the fs with mcp?
Need to change something in FSUIPC?

Same behavior and with FS9 and with the Fsx.
With and without SIOC.

Regards
Lambis

[James Twomey]

Hello Lambis


Yes i have a simular problem. What kind Of MCP are you using with PM systems? I have been using CP Flight and PM MCP with FSX.

I have been trying to figure out why it does this without any success so far.

[Lambis777]

Hi James

I use the real B777 MCP panel with SIOC code with the cards from Open cockpits and Magenta MCP software and fsx.

But i think the problem is in the MCP software becuase when i fly with the default A/P of fsx and don`t use the Magenta MCP the lever are very very stable.
Same and in the fs9.

When run again the Magenta MCP the lever starting the slowly down and the fast up movement.

Is very strange why other people never report this behavior or never notice this.

Can report the other simmers this behavior of the A/T.
Is a bug or is something that must check in the ini files.

Regards
Lambis

[ryanf]

Hi,

I don't know if it is related but the airbus FCU A/T is very quirky like this also.

It is especially unstable on take-off and climb - takes far too long for appropriate take-off thrust to be selected (never mind the normal spool-up delay) and the speed is often allowed to go a good 20 knots above or below the selected speed before the A/T "wakes-up" and corrects the thrust.

I often see the little bug on the N1 thrust dial move up and down very fast as if the A/T is getting confused as to what the correct commanded thrust should be.

Also, the flight director often commands extreme pitch angles during take-off / climb-out phase.

So, these kind of PM bugs seem to be very common.

regards,
Ryan.

[Lambis777]

Hello

Can Jonathan or Thomas tell us why this happen?
Is a bug of A/T?
Enrico knows this problem?

Regards
Lambis

[JonathanRichardson]

>Can Jonathan or Thomas tell us why this happen?
Is a bug of A/T? Enrico knows this problem?

Hi

I would start looking at your MCP cycle time - the recommended setting is between 50-70 to be set in the MCP ini *but* this is entirely system dependent. Too high a number and you might miss bits of information, too low and the same in reverse. There is an optimal and you should look at this per system. I have a setting of 30ms here in the simulator. I have 100% rock steady AT ops. Speed is within + / - 3kts whilst AP and AT are engaged. I do not use V/S as a level chance very much but have not noticed anything recently with that but will re-check. The other factor in this (and related to the above) is the network speed / and or errors of course. Make sure your FS framerate is not something that can not be sustained leaving no time for network / MCP.

Further to this, check your flight model, make sure it is balanced correctly (but from what people have said it seems this would not be the issue here). Do your tests with no wind or adverse weather - for obvious reasons.

Then I would move to the CDU / MAINT / AT pages. Here you can alter the effectiveness of the AT - norm is 100 - and if you mess around with this go gently - you will have to perfrom many tests to see if / what is effecting things. Unfortunately there is no documentation for these settings. I'm sorry about that, but that is the way that part is. Generally it should not need touching. I think if you play with values up to 120 // 140% you might see the effects. Again, this I would say is secondary, and should not be required - don't open a can of worms for yourselves with this unless you are 100% sure of the first part being correct. I think if you are see big changes or "hunting" of the AT it is more likely to be network or cycle time related.

Regards
Jonathan Richardson


Regards
Lambis[/QUOTE]

[Lambis777]

Hi Jonathan

Today morning i have make a test and i change the values in the MCP cycle time.
I give values from 30 to 70 and the bevavior of the A/T is the same.

I make test without CDU.
The frames or the fs are up to 40.
I use the FS and the MCP in the same computer (no network).
I use different aircrafts.
All they have same behaviour. The lever go up and down.

If I stop the Project magenta MCP and use the defualt MCP of the fs the A/T is stable.
Something is bother the A/T.

Can i send you any log file maybe you undestand what is going wrong?
From FSUIPC? from MCP? My MCP.ini ?

Regards
Lambis

[Thomas Richter]

Hi Jonathan

Today morning i have make a test and i change the values in the MCP cycle time.
I give values from 30 to 70 and the bevavior of the A/T is the same.

I make test without CDU.
The frames or the fs are up to 40.
I use the FS and the MCP in the same computer (no network).
I use different aircrafts.
All they have same behaviour. The lever go up and down.

If I stop the Project magenta MCP and use the defualt MCP of the fs the A/T is stable.
Something is bother the A/T.

Can i send you any log file maybe you undestand what is going wrong?
From FSUIPC? from MCP? My MCP.ini ?

Regards
Lambis

What hardware do you use for MCP?

[oal331]

Hello

Can Jonathan or Thomas tell us why this happen?
Is a bug of A/T?
Enrico knows this problem?

Regards
Lambis

Hi Lambis,

did you sent a private email to PM's support?

If any answer from support, please post it here, so you also know.

Regards


Eddie

[Lambis777]

Thomas I use OpenCockpit Cards.
But the problem exist with or witout the OpenCockpit Cards.

The last test is only with the Magenta MCP and the fs.
Nothing More.

Lambis

[oal331]

Thomas I use OpenCockpit Cards.
But the problem exist with or witout the OpenCockpit Cards.

The last test is only with the Magenta MCP and the fs.
Nothing More.

Lambis

If i was in your position, i would trying to make all as simple as i could.

1) First make a fresh installation of PM's MCP and check with all default values.

2)Check also 777 and 737 ac

3) No CDU or GC running

4) Try the same at FS9 Maybe there is an issue with new Fsuipc

5) Update your Programs (PM's MCP and Fsuipc)

6) Try them i single PC to avoid netwaork problems

7) Try to read the values from Fsuipc for these throttle offsets. Do they change or they are stable?

regards


Eddie

[JonathanRichardson]

>Today morning i have make a test and i change the values in the MCP cycle time.
I give values from 30 to 70 and the bevavior of the A/T is the same.

So, on the speed tape of the PFD you see large speed differences?

>I make test without CDU.

Why? I'd keep the whole system running - the ref N1 comes from the CDU most likely.

>The frames or the fs are up to 40.

That sounds rather fast - unless you have a very high end machine. Cinema and TV is 25fps // US TV 30fps. Faster is not necessary. Perhaps cap it at 25fps for a while to see if it helps.

>I use the FS and the MCP in the same computer (no network).

Even more reason to cap the framerate. Give the MCP some processing time.

> The lever go up and down.

I would mainly be interested only in software, what is the speed indication on the PFD. If this is a hardware problem, that is something else, may be your hardware is feeding back wrong information and messing up the MCP - I have no way of knowing. Have you tried a pure software test? I think you will find the problem is not with the PM MCP. I have heard of some 737 hardware solutions that were set up pretty badly and caused a lot of problems. What is used for the position setting of the throttle? What drives that? Is there any other software inbetween / and what offset is being used?

>If I stop the Project magenta MCP and use the defualt MCP of the fs the A/T is stable.
Something is bother the A/T.

But that points possibly to using the wrong offset. Or whatever software is used to communicate with PM MCP perhaps also has a cycle time setting? FS2Phidget has a cycle time setting, if this is not set correctly the A/T;s will move incorrectly and can/will miss position information or be very late to update. But this is only the motion control part, not the actual commanded power of the MCP software.

>Can i send you any log file maybe you undestand what is going wrong?
From FSUIPC? from MCP? My MCP.ini ?

No - that really won't help I think. I don't think this is an issue with the MCP, if you run the MCP without hardware, you will most likely find it is correctly commanding the A/T and giving good speed holds in LVL CH and V/S and in level flight. So, it is something to do with hardware, or your control software of the hardware. Also, Thomas asked about which hardware is it - he might also have a good pointer if you can let us know.

Regards
Jonathan Richardson





Regards
Lambis[/QUOTE]

[Thomas Richter]

Thomas I use OpenCockpit Cards.
But the problem exist with or witout the OpenCockpit Cards.

The last test is only with the Magenta MCP and the fs.
Nothing More.

Lambis

What hardware do you use for Throttles?

[Lambis777]

I use the Opencockpit cards. With sioc code.

But the problem exist and with and without hardware.

I make more test and i found the following resaults:

I use clean setup of the MCP and the levers working ok.

With the follow parameters the levers working ok and these values i get from a clean setup of the MCP:
the follow values are from the MCP.ini
N1ref=95
N1TOref=88
N1GAref=95
N1CLBref=84
N1CRZref=95
ThrRedAlt=1000

Now when i run the CDU these values are change and the levers go crazy up and down.

My aircraft ini file that i use for the CDU have wrong N1 values?
------------------------------
Also i notice When i push the V/S to make a climb the label in the EICAS screen CRZ is not change to CLB.
But if i push the FLCH the CRZ change to CLB.
I don`t know if this is normal. Just i report it in any case.

Lambis

[Thomas Richter]

I use the Opencockpit cards. With sioc code.

But the problem exist and with and without hardware.

I make more test and i found the following resaults:

I use clean setup of the MCP and the levers working ok.

With the follow parameters the levers working ok and these values i get from a clean setup of the MCP:
the follow values are from the MCP.ini
N1ref=95
N1TOref=88
N1GAref=95
N1CLBref=84
N1CRZref=95
ThrRedAlt=1000

Now when i run the CDU these values are change and the levers go crazy up and down.

My aircraft ini file that i use for the CDU have wrong N1 values?
------------------------------
Also i notice When i push the V/S to make a climb the label in the EICAS screen CRZ is not change to CLB.
But if i push the FLCH the CRZ change to CLB.
I don`t know if this is normal. Just i report it in any case.

Lambis

Which Offsets do you control with SIOC for the Throttles?

[Lambis777]

I use the 088C & 0924 if i remember good.( iam at work right now).

Lambis

[Thomas Richter]

I use the 088C & 0924 if i remember good.( iam at work right now).

Lambis

But you know that you don't have to use this Offsets ?
Because the MCP writes of course as well to this Offsets when A/T is active!

From Pete's Offset list (Manual) it is clearly described that the Offsets 88C and 924 is not to use for direct input.
088C, 2, Engine 1 Throttle lever, –4096 to +16384
[Programs controlling throttle directly from user inputs should write to 089A instead if the input should be disconnectable via offset 310A (e.g. for auto-throttle management)]

[737NUT]

I can tell you from direct expierence, i tried all the different offsets, it didn't matter. Had the same issue, throttles that jerked all over the place! Only when using PM-MCP. Default FS AT and my levers moved smoothly.

[NicD]

Just so you know it's possible .... I'm using PM-MCP (cpflight hardware) and controlling the A/T with OpenCockpits servo card and SIOC code. Having no problems and throttles move smoothly and as expected.

[JonathanRichardson]

I can tell you from direct expierence, i tried all the different offsets, it didn't matter. Had the same issue, throttles that jerked all over the place! Only when using PM-MCP. Default FS AT and my levers moved smoothly.

Hi

Then I think you have some kind of cycle time problem or something like I described before. It is very easy to simply think it is the PM software at fault, but I really think it is not. I'm about to go into the sim with two pilots this morning, and the AT is running extremely well, just as it has done for the past 1.5ys. If there was a problem with the PM MCP controlling the AT I'd be one of the first to see it I can assure you of that. I'm not saying it is easy to get all this working smoothly, but if you think the problem lies with the PM MCP - I'd suggest you might be chasing in the wrong direction there.

Regards
Jonathan Richardson

[hercules]

is it possible that the reason is a confict beween FS9 and PM? I guess that you have removed the original panels from the FS) aircraft, so the FS9 MCP isn´t working!? If not, you should do it.

You also could try to change tje offsets for throttles 1 and 2. I had similar problmes and after changing the offsests i does working perfect.


Thomas

[Lambis777]

Hi

Jonathan i think the problem exist from the values in the AT Factor screen.

Please can you add your values that you use in your sim?

SPD%<11000FT
SPD%>11000FT
THRLIMIT% (what this means?)
LVLCHNG%
MACH%
THR SYNC ON or OFF (what they doing this)?
FD<200KT
FD>200KT

Please when you have time check and add your values of your sim.
I suggest the other simmers who have A/T problems to add in the CDU the values when Jonathan give us.

Thanks for the help all of you.
Regards
Lambis

[JonathanRichardson]

SPD%<11000FT // 110
SPD%>11000FT // 110
THRLIMIT% // 100
LVLCHNG% // 120
MACH% // 100
THR SYNC ON or OFF // OFF (it will sync both throttles)
FD<200KT // 100
FD>200KT // 100

You are welcome to try, but this is tuned for our sim...

Regards
Jonathan Richardson

[brianwilliamson]

I have just discovered something that also may be of interest. In the Airbus FCU I changed the cycle time and it fixed completely a problem I have been having for months with doing ILS appraches in FSX.
It was CycleMilliseconds= 80 and I changed it to 30 and BINGO, but when I shut the program down (FCU and WIDE Client) it changed the CycleMilliseconds= to 80 again. Even after a complete re-install when it dfaulted to 50, after the first flight and then shutdown, it immediately went to 80 !!
Not sure yet why this is happening but may help with some of the problems that are being encountered.
Regards.................Brian W.

[JonathanRichardson]

Hi

The cycle time is just one factor, problems can be further than this, down to your network, speed of computers, badly set-up computers, bad chip-sets / drivers, old computers, very fast and very slow miss matches of networked computers, different OS machines mixed on the network, and the one thing that is really important is a good network, that is stable and stable machines, the PM software requires that it must communicate between each program - if the lines get blocked you will have problems. If you set things up carefully, and are really focused and pay a lot of attention to it, then everything will run correctly. Many factors can cause programs to run badly or too slow or without correct resources.

Regards
Jonathan Richardson

[pinosoft]

Hi,

I have the same problem, I have the TQ of FSC and with the PM MCP the throttle move up and down when I use the TO mode and with the LVL CHG in descend, if I use the MCP default the TQ work very well in all mode.

I see in the EICAS monitor when this problem is in act and the gauges N1 move up and down same of TQ.

Anyone have solve this problem?

I have make all the modify in this forum and I check all PC's and the network but the problem is not resolve.

I think the problem is in the PM MCP software.


Thanks

Pino

[mauriceb]

I think the problem is in the PM MCP software.
Thanks
Pino

Pino,

I have been using servo controlled auto-throttles for almost 2 years now will all versions of the PM MCP and I never had this problem after I got the right offsets, so I really don't think this is a PM MCP software problem.

The only problem I ever had was at the beginning when I used the offset that you mentioned at the beginning of this thread (Offset 088C) and the associated offset (0924). You cannot have the same offsets for the throttle pots & the servo motors. The servo motors must use the following offsets (089A & 0932). I may have the values reversed since I'm going from memory here, but the offsets have to be different for the throttle pots and the throttle servos otherwise you will get very strange behaviour and this will only show up once you connect TQ hardware with servo (or motor) controlled throttle handles.

Having said that & not knowing about your particular configuration, all I can tell you is that this is what I had to do in my case to get the A/T to work properly.

Maurice

Edit: As I susopected, I had the values reversed. The servo motors use the following offsets 088C & 0924 and the throttle pots use these offsets:089A & 0932

[pinosoft]

Thank you very much Maurice,

I using the TQ with the original hardware from FSC, before change the all original hardware with the OC electronics cards (mastercard, usbservo,ecc.) I want be sure the problem is not solve in other way.

I don't know what offsets using the FSC driver for pot and servo, I try contact the FSC staff for more information.

Thank again and regards

Pino

[Thomas Richter]

Hi,

I have the same problem, I have the TQ of FSC and with the PM MCP the throttle move up and down when I use the TO mode and with the LVL CHG in descend, if I use the MCP default the TQ work very well in all mode.

I see in the EICAS monitor when this problem is in act and the gauges N1 move up and down same of TQ.

Anyone have solve this problem?

I have make all the modify in this forum and I check all PC's and the network but the problem is not resolve.

I think the problem is in the PM MCP software.


Thanks

Pino

Hi

What software drives your ThrottleQ. ?

[pinosoft]

Hi

What software drives your ThrottleQ. ?

Hi Thomas, I use PM software and driver for TQ by FSC but the problem is only with PM Mcp, with the Mcp of Fs there is no problem.
Pino

Posted via Mobile Device

[Thomas Richter]

So there is a problem with FSC driver because we don't use the default FS Auto-Throttle (MCP speed control) system of its MCP, we use our own system and disable the default one. When your TQ software driver uses instead the default one or trys to enable it you will get those problems.

[pinosoft]

So there is a problem with FSC driver because we don't use the default FS Auto-Throttle (MCP speed control) system of its MCP, we use our own system and disable the default one. When your TQ software driver uses instead the default one or trys to enable it you will get those problems.

Ok, but I have the same feedback on screen of eicas without the tq, on the eicas the n1 gauge go up & down

Posted via Mobile Device

[Thomas Richter]

And this happends with all latest builds of PM software with the default 737 A/C ?
FS9 or FSX ?

[pinosoft]

And this happends with all latest builds of PM software with the default 737 A/C ?
FS9 or FSX ?

yes, I have download today the last version of mcp and I try with 737 of fs, lf I quit Mcp of PM and use default mcp is ok the throttle moves well with the pm mcp Throttle moves crazy.
I use the fs9

Posted via Mobile Device

[mauriceb]

yes, I have download today the last version of mcp and I try with 737 of fs, lf I quit Mcp of PM and use default mcp is ok the throttle moves well with the pm mcp Throttle moves crazy.
I use the fs9

Posted via Mobile Device

Pino,

As I said before, the PM MCP software has worked flawlessly for my throttle in all previous & current releases and even with FSX. So I really think you need to look for the cause elsewhere and the offsets would be a very good place to concentrate on.

I had almost identical problems when I used the PM MCP at the beginning and these were offset issues and not MCP software issues. My throttle was working fine with FS9 as well and I had problems when I switched to the PM MCP until I resolved the offset issue as I mentioned in my previous post.

I am using the FDS MCP which is not what you are using, so your issues may be different, but the symptoms sure look the same to me than the problems I was having when I had the wrong offsets. Did you get a chance to verify what offsets your throttle pots and throttle servos are using?

Maurice

Edit: The offset values I gave earlier may be reversed. The pot offsets I listed may be the servo offsets & vice versa, but I'm not sure. I will check tonight & confirm

After checking, I had the offsets reversed. They should be offsets 088C & 0924 for the servo motors and the throttle pots use offsets 089A & 0932