EIGHT MONITORS on one PC!!!!!!!!

[manhattan]

Hi Folks.

I notice in the latest PC Pilot magazine, that somebody has managed to run EIGHT outside view monitors on ONE PC!! There is a photo of the setup which looks amazing. There is no spec mentioned, and I can only assume that he is using four dual head cards - or a 3togo plus one on the second port, and two dual heads?
I have mailed the magazine for more information, and if anyone is interested, I will put it on the forum


TONY.

[Geremy Britton]

yes please! i am just trying to find out different methods of connecting several monitors up to ONE pc. Would be very interested in your findings please report back...

thanks,
geremy

[Paul Thomas]

Would be interesting to know about this setup. I thought he was using a multiple setup of Matrox TrippleHead 2 Go.

[manhattan]

Would be interesting to know about this setup. I thought he was using a multiple setup of Matrox TrippleHead 2 Go.

Interesting........but triple head is in three's (ttl 9) and this assumes that he can run it on PCI cards? Unless he is configuring two 3togo's from one dual head?
I have not heard from the magazine yet.

TONY.

[Petex1]

Tony
I did a search on the internet "8 monitors/flight simulator" and it brought up a youtube video of an 8 monitor setup which looks impressive, is this the same one.

Pete

[manhattan]

Tony
I did a search on the internet "8 monitors/flight simulator" and it brought up a youtube video of an 8 monitor setup which looks impressive, is this the same one.

Pete

Had a look through the internet, but could not find the item you mention? There was a device that offered multi monitors of the same image (splitter), but nothing like the PC Pilot write-up.

Is there any way that you can direct me to it?

TONY.

[manhattan]

Have just contacted a chap called "GOST1VIAN" on YouTube. He has managed eight view monitors on one PC using what looks like four dual heads.
He uses an AMD7 series chipset, but I am waiting on his reply to my email for more technical information. I have seen his video, and the views are VERY smooth. Find YouTube and have a look?

TONY.

[Petex1]

Thats the one I was talking about
Pete

[manhattan]

Hello again.

Spec herewith -
AMD X2 CPU.
AMD 790FX based Motherboard.
Latest AMD dual head Graphics Cards - using PCIe slots.
2gb Ram.

Gigabyte, Asus and MSI all have Motherboards based on the AMD790FX chipset, with support for 4 graphics cards.

If you can afford it, it might be a good alternative to "Wideview"? Avoids all that mucking about with extra PC's, extra programme discs and putting stuff on slew!

Just a thought?


TONY.

[AndyT]

For those of us that do not know how to search YouTube...

YouTube - 8 Monitor Microsoft Flight Simulator

[Matt Olieman]

Fascinating, certainly would like more details. I'm quite impressed with the side views, he must have separate windows on each monitor. What do you think. Also, hard to tell if it was really smooth or not.

More research on this would be fantastic:)

[Michael Carter]

I'd like to know how big the power supply is.

[Matt Olieman]

Gigawatts???? :)

[AndyT]

1.21 Gigawatts!

[manhattan]

1.21 Gigawatts!

VERY FUNNY! You do know that the power consumption of a video card is very low? I don't know what this chap uses, but I doubt if it's more than 1000 watts! Why don't you ask him - or does this new route to multiple outside views fail to interest you?
I guess some are "die hard" Wideview types??

Good simming.


TONY.

[David Rogers]

I personally think the whole future of cockpit simming, lies away from the current trend towards multiple PCs (some people running 8 PCs!), and more towards a single, clearly powerful PC, with multiple components such as graphics cards, etc.

I mean....it's not exactly ecologically friendly running 8 PCs for a 'home sim' !! (but that's a different debate). It just seems more plausible that new technologies (like TH2GO and Mobos that support multiple graphics cards), will be the way forward. We then wouldn't need mulitple CPUs, multiple Mobos, Multiple Operating Systems, etc, etc.....


.

[manhattan]

I personally think the whole future of cockpit simming, lies away from the current trend towards multiple PCs (some people running 8 PCs!), and more towards a single, clearly powerful PC, with multiple components such as graphics cards, etc.

I mean....it's not exactly ecologically friendly running 8 PCs for a 'home sim' !! (but that's a different debate). It just seems more plausible that new technologies (like TH2GO and Mobos that support multiple graphics cards), will be the way forward. We then wouldn't need mulitple CPUs, multiple Mobos, Multiple Operating Systems, etc, etc.....


.

Well said Dave...


TONY.

[Lambis777]

Hi

From my setup i get 3 views.
I get the 2 views from the big Nvidia 8800 gts.
and from a small vga nvidia 6200 i get the last view.

BUT as far as i know the second card (the small one) give only extra view and nothing more.

If i change my second small vga card (6200) with a bigger vga card ,nothing gonna change in the performance.

How is possible this we see in the video with the multiple vgas? and each vga is responsible and for the views and for the performance.

Is different the motherboard?

Lambis

[manhattan]

I personally think the whole future of cockpit simming, lies away from the current trend towards multiple PCs (some people running 8 PCs!), and more towards a single, clearly powerful PC, with multiple components such as graphics cards, etc.

I mean....it's not exactly ecologically friendly running 8 PCs for a 'home sim' !! (but that's a different debate). It just seems more plausible that new technologies (like TH2GO and Mobos that support multiple graphics cards), will be the way forward. We then wouldn't need mulitple CPUs, multiple Mobos, Multiple Operating Systems, etc, etc.....


.

Hello again.

I have again heard from the "8 monitor man". He uses a 700w PSU if it's any help to any body?

TONY.

[mounty]

Hi Guys,

I figure that it costs about $2,000.00 US to build a computer that uses the same set up as the guy with 8 monitors. Seems to be a lot cheaper and less complicated than buying/building 3 or 4 computers and then networking them etc. The cost of 8 monitors is the same, just the other hardware that's the problem.

Looks like a good way to go.

Rob

[AndyT]

8 monitors =
2 dual head vid cards + two 3HTgo

You really NEED a multi core machine to run this kind of setup.
I suggest a Quad core with as much memory as you can afford.

This one is a bit pricey but it will handle 16 cores. Of course, you will need a 64 bit OS for that many cores...
http://www.supermicro.com/products/motherboard/Xeon7000/7300/X7QC3.cfm

[manhattan]

For those that are interested, I have heard from "PC Pilot" here in the UK concerning the 8 monitor setup -
The computer was a demo system from AMD showing off the new quad core chip. The motherboard had four PCi Rxpress slots allowing four dual output graphics cards to function. These cards were ATI 2900, running on a quad core CPU.
The crappy demo video found on Utube does show it working - but is NOT an official promo!

This could be put together for £1000.00, with everything "under one roof" - but no doubt the die hards will still spend twice this much buying extra computers and putting up with "Wideview", and all the hassles that go with it!!


TONY.

[Matt Olieman]

- but no doubt the die hards will still spend twice this much buying extra computers and putting up with "Wideview", and all the hassles that go with it!!
TONY.

Interesting information, thanks for the input and research...

In defense of us die hards :) Please don't forget the limitations of MSFS. The most wide view you can get out of MSFS is 103 degrees. So a couple more computers would be needed using "Wideview." That's if you want to go beyond 103 degrees :)

[manhattan]

Interesting information, thanks for the input and research...

In defense of us die hards :) Please don't forget the limitations of MSFS. The most wide view you can get out of MSFS is 103 degrees. So a couple more computers would be needed using "Wideview." That's if you want to go beyond 103 degrees :)

Not entirely sure what you mean by a limitation of 103 degrees? Probably me being a bit thick - but if the view (further round) is available, then surely it can be displayed? Can WideView "create" these extra views when MSFS can't? According to my research, any view available - be it left, right, front, back or points in between, can be displayed using the system mentioned. Unless MSFS refuses to send the views to the graphics cards?
This is an area that I know little about and presumed that if a view is in MSFS, it can be displayed on a monitor?

TONY.

[Prof Bill]

I would really like to know what the impact is on frame rates!!

I have done considerable development work in this area using QuadCore systems and the "hit" on framerates with just four monitors is really serious in FSX.

I have tried two triplehead2go with top of the range Gainward graphic cards in the two PCIe slots of a very high spec QuadCore with six monitors and for well understood technical reasons performance is unacceptable!!

I would indeed welcome some information on the simulator performance settings and screen resolutions and the resultant impact of using eight monitors.

In terms of enviornmental efficiency I agree with David Rogers and it would be "good for the planet" if we could crack this one!!

Bill.

[Matt Olieman]

Assumption in my part, using a single view, the front view. Setting it back as far as you can. Which give you a 103 degree view. Which is quite a bit, and satisfying to most.

BUT, you CAN use multiple windows, and suppose, go all the way around. But then you would have to play with those messy window frames :)

So Tony, you are correct it can be done with one machine...

Love to have someone else jump in here and share some of their experiences doing this :)

[manhattan]

I would really like to know what the impact is on frame rates!!

I have done considerable development work in this area using QuadCore systems and the "hit" on framerates with just four monitors is really serious in FSX.

I have tried two triplehead2go with top of the range Gainward graphic cards in the two PCIe slots of a very high spec QuadCore with six monitors and for well understood technical reasons performance is unacceptable!!

I would indeed welcome some information on the simulator performance settings and screen resolutions and the resultant impact of using eight monitors.

In terms of enviornmental efficiency I agree with David Rogers and it would be "good for the planet" if we could crack this one!!

Bill.

I'm not too technical in this area, but the demo shown on Utube (not a professional video) appears to be 'judder' free when the aircraft changes attitude, and the speed brake operation is smooth as shown on a right hand view monitor. If you can find it on Utube under flight simulation, the builder is available to email for information. I saw the info in PC Pilot, and they wrote to me directly. I think that the exact specification would need to be followed to achieve the correct results.
I already have seven totally trouble free monitors on one PC with 50/60 frame rates, but the 8 monitor article interested me. I think it's only a matter of time before one PC will be able to handle a number of monitors as a matter of course. Who will change over when this happens?

TONY (twin otter)

[BHawthorne]

I have the ASUS 790FX mobo and run 3 video cards on it atm. If I had the cash to spare I'd sell my 3 2-slot video cards and go with 4 1-slot 8800GT 256. I will be posting soon my experiences with 6 monitors. :D

http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/4223/northdesktf8.jpg

BTW: 1000W+ PSUs are overkill. I'm running a 580W just fine.

[Matt Olieman]

I want to know what that center monitor is..... it's awfully bright.... :)

[Bob Reed]

I want to know what that center monitor is..... it's awfully bright.... :)

Um...Matt..... That is a window.... Silly.....;-)

[BHawthorne]

Um...Matt..... That is a window.... Silly.....;-)

Yep, and the resolution of that is impressive. :lol:

[Matt Olieman]

Brad, I haven't heard you mention SLI, unless I missed it somewhere. Any experience there, and please share if you have :)

I've heard from gamers, that's the way to go, but how about in our application?

[BHawthorne]

Brad, I haven't heard you mention SLI, unless I missed it somewhere. Any experience there, and please share if you have :)

I've heard from gamers, that's the way to go, but how about in our application?

The lowdown on SLI, SLI only works out of a single video port and disables the use of all over video ports in the computer. To make a long (or wide) story short, I'm a surround-screen gamer, not an SLI gamer. My first experience with SLI was back with the 6800U. I do have extensive knowledge about SLI, so if you have any questions feel free to ask.

As far as sims, IMHO SLI would only be well suited for a setup using either a single projector overhead with slave computers doing the rest, or with a TH2G box 3 monitors with slave computers doing the rest. You're stuck with single video out solutions with SLI mode.

The advantage that comes along for simpit builders are the motherboard designs that were pushed forward by SLI technology. You've now got 3 or 4 high speed PCIe video card slots available in some SLI (Crossfire) motherboards. SLI (and Crossfire) developed the technology for us, but we'd use it for multi-monitor instead of SLI. SLI gaming has been one of those buzz-words that you hear a lot about. Just as impressive, if not more-so, surround-screen gaming is slowly growing in popularity.

[Matt Olieman]

Brad, stay with me a moment.... I hear ya, "not a SLI gamer" :) but, how would you think dual cards, SLI will work with TH2Go? What's your opinion on that?

[BHawthorne]

Brad, stay with me a moment.... I hear ya, "not a SLI gamer" :) but, how would you think dual cards, SLI will work with TH2Go? What's your opinion on that?

I think it's ideal. SLI is for pushing big pixel counts. Some people make the mistake of going SLI on something like 1280x1024. That is wasted horsepower. SLI is ideal for TH2G OR big screens like the 30" monitors. With SLI you either go wide or big or you're wasting it. I am using a TH2G in SLI mode in the machine I'm typing on actually. :)

[manhattan]

I have the ASUS 790FX mobo and run 3 video cards on it atm. If I had the cash to spare I'd sell my 3 2-slot video cards and go with 4 1-slot 8800GT 256. I will be posting soon my experiences with 6 monitors. :D

http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/4223/northdesktf8.jpg

BTW: 1000W+ PSUs are overkill. I'm running a 580W just fine.

What's a "MOBO" ? Sorry to have to ask!
Have you tried outside views on this system?
Looks good.

TONY

[Prof Bill]

Tony,
Many thanks for your response!

There are two matters that I believe should be considered when upgrading video cards (to attach more heads) and impact frame rates:

(1) In quite a few motherboards you will find that if you insert two (dual) similiar graphics cards in the dual PCIe slots the speed of the Primary PCIe X 16 (PCIEX16_1) Orange slot changes to X 8 mode after you install any device in the Secondary PCIe X 16 (PCIEX16_2) Black slot. An example being the ASUS P5W DH Deluxe motherboard of which I have three with Intel Quad processors.


(2) SLI is not currently supported in FSX.

I will try and investigate the Utube demo in terms of real delivered performance and understand what is really going on!!

Bill.

[manhattan]

Tony,
Many thanks for your response!

There are two matters that I believe should be considered when upgrading video cards (to attach more heads) and impact frame rates:

(1) In quite a few motherboards you will find that if you insert two (dual) similiar graphics cards in the dual PCIe slots the speed of the Primary PCIe X 16 (PCIEX16_1) Orange slot changes to X 8 mode after you install any device in the Secondary PCIe X 16 (PCIEX16_2) Black slot. An example being the ASUS P5W DH Deluxe motherboard of which I have three with Intel Quad processors.


(2) SLI is not currently supported in FSX.

I will try and investigate the Utube demo in terms of real delivered performance and understand what is really going on!!

Bill.

As I am not (currently) with PCIe, I am in a different experimental area but am convinced that one computer will be all that is needed in the future. The games market is knocking on the door of the designers already!

TONY.

[manhattan]

Tony,
Many thanks for your response!

There are two matters that I believe should be considered when upgrading video cards (to attach more heads) and impact frame rates:

(1) In quite a few motherboards you will find that if you insert two (dual) similiar graphics cards in the dual PCIe slots the speed of the Primary PCIe X 16 (PCIEX16_1) Orange slot changes to X 8 mode after you install any device in the Secondary PCIe X 16 (PCIEX16_2) Black slot. An example being the ASUS P5W DH Deluxe motherboard of which I have three with Intel Quad processors.


(2) SLI is not currently supported in FSX.

I will try and investigate the Utube demo in terms of real delivered performance and understand what is really going on!!

Bill.

Me again!

Try going onto Utube and look for flight simulation and Ghost|Vian. His email details should be there.

TONY

[Matt Olieman]

(2) SLI is not currently supported in FSX.

Bill.

Somewhat confused.... :oops: SLI not supported in FSX, so that means not supported in FS9? And, SLI only wokrs with VISTA?

Obviously, I have limited knowledge regarding SLI and how it works. Any help in some education would be appreciated :)

[BHawthorne]

Somewhat confused.... :oops: SLI not supported in FSX, so that means not supported in FS9? And, SLI only wokrs with VISTA?

Obviously, I have limited knowledge regarding SLI and how it works. Any help in some education would be appreciated :)

I am still new to flight sims, so I can't attest to SLI working or not in FSX. SLI works in Vista and XP just fine. Frankly, I'd recommend XP over Vista use unless you need DX10. DX9 works just fine. Some games it's a matter of semantics when they say "support". It might not be supported but it will work. In other games, "not supported" actually means the client software breaks SLI functionality through certain non-standard hacks that game uses. You'll have to investigate on a case by case basis what games do and don't work with SLI. Much is the same with using a TH2G. Some games simply won't work with surround, some have -vert FOV issues, while others work perfect right out of the box. A lot of this information can be answered at WSGF. Wide screen gaming forum specializes in addressing surround and wide screen gaming issues and work arounds.

WSGF: http://www.widescreengamingforum.com/forum/

[BHawthorne]

What's a "MOBO" ? Sorry to have to ask!
Have you tried outside views on this system?
Looks good.

TONY
Mobo is just an abbreviation for computer motherboard.

That setup is a temporary one used to see how frame rates are via 6 monitors and 1 system. I don't really like to use those CRTs for much. They're too heavy, the bezels are huge and every one of those monitors has different color settings on them no matter how much I try to get the colors right. One of them is pretty much washed out from too much use. They're just surplus monitors I have sitting around I use to test random stuff.

I'll try FSX with it before I tare that setup down again. :)

[Matt Olieman]

Brad, thanks for your explanations :)

[BHawthorne]

Brad, thanks for your explanations :)

No problem, I remember how hard this stuff was to learn on my own. I'm just trying to make it easier for others. :)

[manhattan]

No problem, I remember how hard this stuff was to learn on my own. I'm just trying to make it easier for others. :)

How are the frame rates with the 6 monitor experiment? I am thinking of using a dual head PCI card for left and right views. I already use Parhelia and two other low power instrument PCI's. My system is Asus MOBO/ 3g proc/2g ram.
As you seem to experiment a lot, I thought I would ask.

TONY

[BHawthorne]

How are the frame rates with the 6 monitor experiment? I am thinking of using a dual head PCI card for left and right views. I already use Parhelia and two other low power instrument PCI's. My system is Asus MOBO/ 3g proc/2g ram.
As you seem to experiment a lot, I thought I would ask.

TONY

The 6-monitor setup is up and running. I've just not had time to install FSX on it yet. I have a silly problem of typically trying to do too many personal projects at once and many of the projects suffer in the process. Hopefully, I can get something done about the 6-monitor testing today and see how it goes. 2 of those monitors have some color calibration problems and one of them is outright washed out/burnin age issues. They all work though, so we're good to do the testing with it at least.

With your example question: If they're only pushing instruments, I'd say it's ok. If they're pushing a main view with big pixel count, it would be too much of a slide show for my preferences. When you start stressing the machine with anything over 2 monitors you really need a modern cpu, motherboard, video cards setup or the fps gets really bad. My example is using a Phenom 9600 Black Edition (unlocked), 2 8800GTS 320's and 1 7800GTXKO. The motherboard I'm using has 4 PCIe 2.0 slots that accept 16x PCIe cards and run them in 8x PCIe 2.0 (16x PCIe 1.0) format. There are several factors there that make it so the computer can push that pixel count. Going older video cards and PCI bus will make things borderline. Ultimately, it's up to you if you can tolerate the fps achieved with the setup, I say go for it. It's certainly a lot cheaper to buy a 6-series PCI geforce card instead of a whole other slave machine. The limitation for you would be the video cards. The other hardware looks to be decent. What kind of slots are available on the motherboard? Is it AGP/PCI or PCIe/PCI?

[btlnco]

Ok,
I thought you couldn't run more than one grafix card on 1 "Mobo"?
I see it can be done, anything special? I have my new computer coming today, and I can take my old grafix card out.. its about the same as the new one and put it in with the new computer?

[BHawthorne]

Ok,
I thought you couldn't run more than one grafix card on 1 "Mobo"?
I see it can be done, anything special? I have my new computer coming today, and I can take my old grafix card out.. its about the same as the new one and put it in with the new computer?

That premise is based on obsolete AGP based motherboards. PCIe has been the slot standard for video cards for a few years now. You can run as many video cards as you have slots to put them in. If your old computer is AGP, that card won't work in your new PCIe computer. Ofcourse, if the card is really old, it might be PCI and that could work in one of the PCI slots. Whatever you do, don't mix up the card slot types. Each slot type is proprietary to that card type. PCI card for PCI slot, AGP card for AGP slot, PCIe card for PCIe slot.

[PDT 200]

Shouldn't be too difficult to do using 1 AGP dual head card and 2 PCI dual head cards along with the matrox 3togo. That's what I'll be using shortly with 7 monitors. 3 projectors for outside view, 2 for PFD and MIP,1 for the FMC or GPS, and the last for the overhead. Need to have a system with a GOOD power supply 500+ watts, and plenty of cooling. Won't comment of how it will work with FSX. FSX doesn't work well with my system. But then I like everything maxed out with the sliders so that's MY problem not FSX!
Regards,
Brian

[manhattan]

Shouldn't be too difficult to do using 1 AGP dual head card and 2 PCI dual head cards along with the matrox 3togo. That's what I'll be using shortly with 7 monitors. 3 projectors for outside view, 2 for PFD and MIP,1 for the FMC or GPS, and the last for the overhead. Need to have a system with a GOOD power supply 500+ watts, and plenty of cooling. Won't comment of how it will work with FSX. FSX doesn't work well with my system. But then I like everything maxed out with the sliders so that's MY problem not FSX!
Regards,
Brian

Hi Bri.

Any chance of explaining what monitors are going to go where? If you are using an AGP dual head for two monitors, how will you run your 3togo? From a PCI card? Can this be done? If you could explain exactly what cards are to receive what (view/ instrument/ 3togo) it would be a help.
Good luck with the idea.

TONY

[BHawthorne]

Hi Bri.

Any chance of explaining what monitors are going to go where? If you are using an AGP dual head for two monitors, how will you run your 3togo? From a PCI card? Can this be done? If you could explain exactly what cards are to receive what (view/ instrument/ 3togo) it would be a help.
Good luck with the idea.

TONY

AGP+PCI sounds like a recipe for a slide show setup if it's going to push outside display. You not going to get that good of a FPS output on that. If it was just going to do instruments it might not be so bad though.

[manhattan]

AGP+PCI sounds like a recipe for a slide show setup if it's going to push outside display. You not going to get that good of a FPS output on that. If it was just going to do instruments it might not be so bad though.

Still confused - but hoping for some info from Bri'

TONY

[PDT 200]

So far I've been running 1 AGP and a PCI card running 3 monitors with no hit on frame rates in the upper 20's. My overhead projector runs off the VGA output and my MIP, 26" HDTV/Monitor, is connected to the DVI output. The other card only has 1 VGA output that I use for the overhead panel and other popups. When I get back to NC and get the sim rebuilt, the triple head will come off the DVI outpit of the AGP card with the MIP monitor coming off the standard monitor output. The view on the triple head will be the forward VC view without cockpit or the normal view of the outside windowed away from the instrument panel. I'll see which one shows the widest view. I'm adding a third PCI card for the MFD and overhead panel. The older PCI card will be for the FMC/GPS or other popups as needed for the aircraft I'm flying. I don't need the radio stacks or autopilot because I have the GoFlight mods for them. If I have to, after putting all this together and coming up with lousy rates, I can network 4 more computers to up the rates. Just trying to keep it simple for now.
Regards,
Brian

[knmi]

Hello there folks, just arrived both at the forum and at the simworld.
Just up and running FS9 w/3 scenery, 1 flight instrument and 1 radio/GPS flat monitors (5 tot). 1 agp, 2 pci on 3000 Intel 4 mobo. Just want to stay a small plane simmer.
Adding the second PCI card made the rate drop below acceptance.
Aiming for 7 monitors or 6 w/overhead projector of poor quality.

I was going to order th2go digital but realized I had a server Athlon 64 bit board with 2x2 prosessors, 2xpci-e that perhaps can be used. I already have 2 x 2 graphic adapters on that board, RX550 under Linux Fedora core 8.
Will this board do the trick outlined above or will I still need to run computers in a LAN configuration to get a flickerfree and smooth (read realistic) scenery?
What Windows operating system/FS version can make me benefit from 2 by 2 64 bit prosessor mobo?

Could I ask anyone of you how I get the FS to remember each monitors unlocked windows when I start the FS the next time.
Thanks for the info about graphic cards on this thread. Very informative.
Knut Michalsen

[JBaymore]

1.21 Gigawatts!

Does he get stuttering if the flux capacitor overheats? ;)

best,

..................john

PS: The "distributed computing" thing is an atempt to get decent smooth framerates with scads of images and interfaces all running. And to run aircraft instrumentation / simulation software that is NOT available directly within the MS sim itself (say like Ellie Systems or Project Magenta, etc.)

PPS: I just watched that video link with a very careful critical eye. There is stuttering there that I would find unacceptable. Maybe I am too critical about such things.... but....... I think all the rough camera handling in the video is helping to hide the lack of smoothness. And it is REALLY hard to tell how high the details setting is. The complexity might be set pretty low to get even that performance.

[warvet]

hahahahhaahaha a window lol you guys kill me. best person to talk to is probably Nic he seems to have the overall situation well under hand and investigated. Me im more or less doing the same thing as Nic. Sometimes I think we forget we are still abit limited by something called NOT REAL! lol Have fun guys but I could never go back to moniors with the frame seperations between windows it makes me feel like Im in a spaceship control tower or something. to me projectors are the way to go.JMO

Tim
A340
Canada