One VERY exciting software program [Archive]

sbecker777

12-25-2007, 09:00 PM

All,
I posted this on the FDS forum today. I've become aware of some incredible software for warping and blending images to form beautiful wraparound visuals for flight simulation. The company is called ImmersaView at http://www.immersaview.com.

Their product is called Sol7 and allows you to use a single computer and projector and project that image on any imaginable surface and correct the geometry so the image is not distorted in any way. It really shines, though, with multiple projectors, where not only is each image geometry-corrected, but also edge-blended, for seamless visuals of virtually any size or resolution.

I'll be using it in two ways: 1) for a single projector on a curved, cylindrical screen for about 150˚ view, and 2) in conjunction with WideView, where each computer also runs Sol7 and each view is edge-blended and pre-warped, providing 150-180˚ total view, depending on how I set it up.

This is not cheap software, but they are aware of the home market for simulators and are looking into solutions that might take advantage of the TripleHead2Go.

Steve

Badge

12-25-2007, 09:38 PM

Keep us posted I was looking at this option and their actual spherical product they offer.

James Twomey

12-25-2007, 11:29 PM

Wow, this looks promising. Will be waiting to hear how it goes for you.

luisgordo

12-26-2007, 05:02 AM

Yeah sounds very promising. Keep us updated!

AndyT

12-26-2007, 05:10 AM

Whats the cost?

Matt Olieman

12-26-2007, 09:50 AM

Whats the cost?

Yeah, I think that's the "BIG" question :)

This sounds fantastic for the low end projectors, which does not have these features attached. So the question IS, how much :)

Also wondering if this is a software item or hardware item... anyone know?

AndyT

12-26-2007, 03:40 PM

I wrote them and asked this question. Here is the response I got from Andy Boud.
=====================================
Hi Andy,

Thanks for getting back to me with your info.

Currently our main customer base is the high-end simulation world,
generally defense based. Hence, pricing for the Sol7 for them is very
cost effective when compared to other hardware alternatives. However, we
also acknowledge that 4k is a high price for non-commercial users.

If you can let me know your intended set-up (i.e. the number of
projectors, display set-up, software application and any pics etc.) then
we will discuss you enquiry internally to see if we can possibly bend
the general rules. In certain cases we have previously provided price
breaks if users are prepared to become beta testers, especially in the
non-commercial world.

Regards

Andy
====================================

Matt Olieman

12-26-2007, 04:31 PM

Andy, thanks for sharing the response :)

Please introduce them to our madness and obsession here at mycockpit.org :) Perhaps we all can become beta testers :) :) :)

AndyT

12-26-2007, 04:57 PM

I sent him an invite and we will have to see if he stops by.

David Rogers

12-26-2007, 07:33 PM

Sorry, er, was that 4k then ????

.

sbecker777

12-26-2007, 10:05 PM

Yes, the software is $4K USD per seat normally. It is only software (with a dongle for each computer). It pre-warps the image and optionally blends it if you have multiple projectors. It is incredibly interactive and elegant. I've found no issues with either FS9 or FSX in my testing. There are, however, mouse misalignments for switches and knobs. In other words, if you want to click on the Flight Director "switch", when the image is pre-warped, the hot spot hasn't moved, but the graphic representation of the FD switch may have, so you "click" on the FD switch, but the hotspot is still where it was pre-warping. ImmersaView are looking into it... :)

Steve

AndyT

12-26-2007, 10:16 PM

Wow Steve, you spent 4 grand on it? How about some pix?
Did you opt for the $600 update package?

andyb

12-26-2007, 10:35 PM

Hi all,

Thanks for the invite Andy and the original post Steve! I've now signed up and can hopefully help with some of the questions.

Regarding the 'killer' pricing question, the price indicated in Andy's thread is List pricing based upon our major target market and customers in the defense and professional flight simulation arena. When comparing Sol7 against other solutions in this area, we are very price and feature competitive :D

We recognize that there is also an enthusiastic home user market and this is an area we would also like to be involved with and support. So, for those interested in Sol7 and curved screen displays, please email me directly off list so we can discuss individual projects in further detail.

We also offer a fully featured download for evaluation purposes, so if anyone is interested in this, then again, please let me know.

Andy
andy-AT-immersaview.com

Tomlin

12-27-2007, 10:06 AM

Andy,

Thank you very much for taking the time to come and join us here at My Cockpit to introduce yourself and to let us know that you are willing to work with the private user regarding the software.

Very top notch of you to do that. Im sure you will be getting LOTS of inquireys on this, as it's a feature we need and are willing to pay for if it's affordable. If not, then we understand, and will continue to use our other self-created innovation! :-)

Thanks again, and Happy New Year!

Matt Olieman

12-27-2007, 10:51 AM

Andy, thanks for joining in and answering some of the preliminary questions. We look forward toward your interaction and hopefully to accommodate some of our builders projection needs :)

Anyway, VERY glad to see you here :)

ivar hestnes

12-27-2007, 11:13 AM

I have read this thread now, and I am very pleased.

I think we sim-builders have a bright future when it comes to visuals. Software like this is exactly what we need.

I think it is important to write down here in this thread what kind of feautures we need. Maybe to eliminate features in software we dont need but the professionals use.

Maybe the software can be simplified to home-entertainment use, and get a price we can live with. And still have the features we need.

Andy B. Thank you very much for your time to look into our fabulous hobby:)

I think there are two kinds of main setup that needs to be covered. Visual through a tripplehead2go and setup with three main computers running visual with Widewiew.

:)

GSalden

12-27-2007, 12:14 PM

Nvidia has free keystone software; in a very simple way.
I tried it and it costed about 25% framerates.

What do you think about this software ? .......:(

Matt Olieman

12-27-2007, 01:06 PM

Nvidia has free keystone software; in a very simple way.
I tried it and it costed about 25% framerates.

What do you think about this software ? .......:(

"What do you thing about this software?" I hope you're not referring to Sol7, of what I've seen of Sol7 it doesn't even compare to simple keystone adjustments.

When you get into curved screens and matching multiple projections side by side, that becomes quite complex.

My NEC LT240 has got all the bells and whistles you can think of, but when it comes to matching projection side by side and working with curved screens, it's a nightmare. So I look forward to hearing more about this... :)

andyb

12-30-2007, 03:02 AM

The geometric reform function in the NEC LT240 projectors are interesting as MattO indicated. But the number of control points and overall functionality is fairly limited when getting into detail.

Also, as GSalden mentioned, there is also keystone correction on some of the NVIDIA cards (but no good for curved displays). NVIDIA also offer an edge blending function with some of the QuadroFX cards, but again when I last played with this feature, the end result wasn't perfect.

My point I guess is that there are some good "for free" features with some existing hardware products out there, but once you get into the real nitty gritty of aligning multiple displays, then it's sometimes hard to do with these existing but features.

If anyone has used the NEC LT240 function and tried the same thing with Sol7, I'm sure there would be some interesting comments.

andyb

12-30-2007, 04:46 AM

Thanks ivar for the positive response about Sol7 and how it may meet some of your visual needs.

Sol7 currently supports the multi-PC, WideView approach and also works with the TH2Go cards. However, with the TH2Go, it only sees the display as one overall display (rather than three seperate outputs). Therefore, at this point, Sol7 only provides one configuration screen per TH2Go box, so it's only capable of warping and edge blend the whole output.

We are currently working on supporting this set-up to provide a configuration screen for each display, so it would be interesting to know current usage of both the TH2Go and WideView displays.

Any comments on current set-ups and preferences??

I have read this thread now, and I am very pleased.

I think we sim-builders have a bright future when it comes to visuals. Software like this is exactly what we need.

I think it is important to write down here in this thread what kind of feautures we need. Maybe to eliminate features in software we dont need but the professionals use.

Maybe the software can be simplified to home-entertainment use, and get a price we can live with. And still have the features we need.

Andy B. Thank you very much for your time to look into our fabulous hobby:)

I think there are two kinds of main setup that needs to be covered. Visual through a tripplehead2go and setup with three main computers running visual with Widewiew.

:)

AndyT

12-30-2007, 04:58 AM

Andy,

I can not speak for the rest, but from what I've seen this is a common configuration. (see pic) P is the Pilot and C is of course the Copilot. The three blue spots are the TH2go screens.

If I use 3 projectors, what is the maximum angle I can have them aimed and still get a correct picture? For example using the same pic I've included, If I Have a projector over the Pilot and Copilot and one between them aimed forward. They would be projecting on the positions shown by the blue areas. The angle of them would be down. About a 50-60 degree angle.

Badge

12-30-2007, 10:04 AM

Here is what I plan to use out to 200 deg http://www.northernflightsim.com/projectionscreen.shtml

ivar hestnes

12-30-2007, 12:13 PM

Thanks ivar for the positive response about Sol7 and how it may meet some of your visual needs.

Sol7 currently supports the multi-PC, WideView approach and also works with the TH2Go cards. However, with the TH2Go, it only sees the display as one overall display (rather than three seperate outputs). Therefore, at this point, Sol7 only provides one configuration screen per TH2Go box, so it's only capable of warping and edge blend the whole output.

We are currently working on supporting this set-up to provide a configuration screen for each display, so it would be interesting to know current usage of both the TH2Go and WideView displays.

Any comments on current set-ups and preferences??

Does this mean that if I use the tripplehead2go my projectors have to be aligned with perfectly edges? And then the Sol7 then can warp the image to get the image perfect without need of curved mirrors.

Or will this work if projectors are not perfectly aligned aswell?

:)

Andy B. You should absolutely look into a private license software with Sol7, with private license pricetag. (Like what project magenta have done). Flight simulator-building has exploded the last two years and all vendors struggle to meet the demand after parts. You can make your own market with this kind of software. Should sell very well with the "right" pricetag:)

For me this is very interesting. Getting a wrap-around wiew with good quality is one of the biggest goals I have with my simulator.

aviaparts

12-30-2007, 06:42 PM

I just did some testing with the software, it is really amazing.
For my project, I would only need 1 single channel to cover the front. Very easy to use software !
In stead of using 3 LCD televisions, I can use 1 projector and a curved screen. The display is borderless and as big as the 3 TV's.

This is certainly something a lot of us can use !

GSalden

12-31-2007, 09:08 AM

Don't forget one important thing : sharpness !

Before I had blown up my 2 projector images to 5,5 ft wide each ( 2x 1.65m ) for a total of 11 ft.
Now I am using them for 2x 4ft each ( 1.24m ) and my outside view is way sharper.

At Flightsim events you often see the same ; 1 image of 7 ft wide.
Nice to look at from 10 ft ( app 3.05 m ) distance but when being near to the screen it is not sharp anymore and very pixeled.

So be carefull ! :wink:

andyb

01-01-2008, 07:10 AM

Hi ivar,

Until we implement seperate configuration screens for each output for the TH2Go, (which is currently being investigated) taking a single configuration screen from Sol7 and projecting this onto a multi-channel curved screen wouldn't be easy to implement at this stage.

Because each projector would be mounted in locations offset from the center of each projected display, the map required for alignment on the curved screen would need to be individually configured for each projector.

When a multi-display configuration function is implemented in Sol7, we will be able to warp each projected image so there would be no requirement for curved mirrors. The alignment of edge butting images can be done in the software, rather than by mechanically aligning the projectors.

One feature that Sol7 additionally offers, but will not work with TH2Go, is edge blending. Edge blending is a pretty handy technique to get rid of the shape edges between side-by-side projectors, but requires there to be a repeated image in the overlap regions. This is a sim-software requirement, rather than something that can be generated by Sol7.

I'm looking into documenting this in further detail as it's quite a complex topic to discuss in words. I'll try and get something up on our website in the next week or so, which hopefully helps the explanation of an rather complicated topic :)

Also, just to note, multiple projector configuration and edge blending is possible for WideView set-ups.

Happy New Year to everyone!!

Does this mean that if I use the tripplehead2go my projectors have to be aligned with perfectly edges? And then the Sol7 then can warp the image to get the image perfect without need of curved mirrors.

Or will this work if projectors are not perfectly aligned aswell?

:)

Westozy

01-01-2008, 08:13 AM

G'day Andy and welcome to MC.org,

I'm another member interested in improved projection techniques, I'll be watching this thread.

Gwyn

BHawthorne

01-01-2008, 03:52 PM

My overall opinion...very innovative piece of software, but the revenue model needs some tweaking for wider acceptance. A thread over at Viperpits relating to this:

http://www.viperpits.org/smf/index.php?topic=3020.msg43304#msg43304

magicaldr

01-01-2008, 07:05 PM

Hi Andy, another user here just dipping my oar in :) Unlike some of my esteemed colleagues below my home pit is very much at the lighter end of the scales. With my modest 2 screen setup I can potter around the virtual sky's, but the one thing I know I need to sort out one day is the outside view.

I had been considering the THTG route, I even have one ready to roll. However being a small GA simmer, the advantage to a single curved screen, with a single projector is immense (not least the fact that I need only 1 projector, reducing risk of a hasty divorce if the wife sees the bill for 3 new lamps ;) ) As such I am also keeping an eye on the thread for developments on any 'non commercial' product release you consider.

Its good to see a commercial company like yourselves taking time out for us 'little' people. I know we cant be the most lucrative audience, compared to real clients out there in the military and commercial sectors. I hope we can strike a balance, giving you a valuable test bed, against the impact on your time.

BHawthorne

01-01-2008, 08:32 PM

...reducing risk of a hasty divorce if the wife sees the bill for 3 new lamps ;) )

Got a super secret link to getting those bulbs...hehe. :lol: ywh on diyaudio forums is a cheap source for Hong Kong import of projector bulbs. I've yet to find another source that'll price match him. http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=59091

That thread is ungodly long, but the gist of it...take a pic of your bulb or get specs for the replacement and he'll tell you what kind of bulb you need and sell you a new one you put into your used lamp assembly. Very cost effective option. I'm using him for a source for my SP5000 bulbs. He price quotes me $80 for bulb and $5 for shipping. Shipping is probably slow as **** from HK, but I can wait for that price. Reading that thread, he has a long established track record. Looks like he started selling bulbs in 2006. :)

andyb

01-01-2008, 10:27 PM

Good point magicaldr!

I've just been playing with a system we've just put together .... just a single 1280x768 projector, on a 130" screen.

http://immersaview.com/images/FS2004Sydney.JPG

If you sit at the center of curvature, then you'll get 100 degrees horizontal field of view.

BHawthorne

01-01-2008, 10:35 PM

Good point magicaldr!

I've just been playing with a system we've just put together .... just a single 1280x768 projector, on a 130" screen.

If you sit at the center of curvature, then you'll get 100 degrees horizontal field of view.

Nice! I have a piece of MDF white glossy 4x8 ft paneling (108" diagonal) I want to try this on. Bought it over a year ago at Home Depot for a few bucks to experiment with. It should prove sufficiently "bendy" enough for me to make a circular screen area. The glossiness of it might give me some bad hot spots in the projection though. Are there any noticeable focus issues projecting onto a curvature? I'm assuming you just focus it to whatever looks sharpest.

andyb

01-03-2008, 07:30 PM

There aren't too many specific issues when projecting onto curved surfaces (apart from the obvious geometry correction). Most projectors have pretty good focus ranges, so focus isn't a particular issue. You may need to spend a couple of extra seconds mid-positioning focus to ensure it's even over the entire surface, but that's about it.

The glossiness of screen material might be a bit more noticeable though. For home systems, I use a matte white (ceiling paint) with a small amount of talcum powder ..... a little secret to improve the texture on the surface. You can also add a tough of grey to improve contrast if needed.

Nice! I have a piece of MDF white glossy 4x8 ft paneling (108" diagonal) I want to try this on. Bought it over a year ago at Home Depot for a few bucks to experiment with. It should prove sufficiently "bendy" enough for me to make a circular screen area. The glossiness of it might give me some bad hot spots in the projection though. Are there any noticeable focus issues projecting onto a curvature? I'm assuming you just focus it to whatever looks sharpest.

Trevor Hale

01-03-2008, 07:47 PM

Hi Andy,

Forgive me but I am very interested in your test image above. If you were to use your software and add keystone correction to the image above, essentially bringing the top left and top right corners closer to the field of view, how does your software give you the added scree depth without distorting or stretching the image forward to the corners? (something from nothing?) Maybe I am not quite understanding the possibilities of your software but I really find this interesting.

Will your software work on a rear projected image with the same result with a convex curve rather then a concave curve?

Again, thanks for taking the time to post here.

Best regards,

Trev
Mycockpit Admin.

andyb

01-03-2008, 10:07 PM

Hi Trevor,

If you're using Sol7 to control the distortion correction, then there's no real need to use the projector's keystone .... all of this can be done using Sol7. :D

Because we curve the screen towards the viewer in the pic, the projector will over scan the screen at the edges and will also introduce some for of barrel distortion for front projection - the exact distortion will depend upon the projector's lens characteristics.

We then take the original image and remap this to match the screen size and shape. Therefore, we effectively resize the original image so that it's correctly aligned onto the curved screen.

This process supports whole host of screen shapes including cylindrical and spherical etc, as well as concave and convex (front pro / rear pro) set-ups.

So, the something for nothing part relates to the projector's pixels that over scan the screen. These are effectively lost (not used in the distortion map).

As an example below I've included an image of an exaggerated Sol7 config. The black areas at the sides and top would be the area of the projector that would be lost in pixels. The map is intended to highlight projecting onto a spherical screen from a side offset angle.

http://immersaview.com/images/pincushion_offaxis_web.png

The loss of some pixels in this process is a general issue of geometric correction with all fixed matrix panel projectors (DLP, LCD, DiLA etc). Generally the numbers are not very significant.

I hope this makes some sort of sense ;)

Trevor Hale

01-03-2008, 10:23 PM

It makes lots of sense. Thanks for taking the time to respond. I am just interested in the concept. So by altering the image prior to the projection stage your not distorting the image after the projection your rearranging it prior to the projection allowing the image to end up asymmetrical once on the screen. In essence adjusting the image perfect on the curved screen then if you were to project the readjusted image to a flat screen would look very strange indeed.

Your exaggerated picture helps me understand.

I currently use a single rear projected image onto a curved screen facing the pilots. (needed to do this to get the image size I required) I get a little stretching of the image in the high corners at the top corners of my screen, as the image rolls off the curve. I gather your software would reduce this stretching effect.

If I could convince the wife, it may be a great idea.

Best regards,

Trev

BHawthorne

01-04-2008, 12:33 PM

Yep, in order to distort it to look correct on the curved screen geometry you do lose some pixels, but the tradeoff looks very impressive. This is some of the stuff I've been reading up on lately:
http://local.wasp.uwa.edu.au/~pbourke/projection/

I especially want to implement a variation of iSphere. Can I accomplish this in a 270 degree 3 projector setup (left, front, right only, no back) using Sol7? This would be pretty ideal for a fighter cockpit setup. I have the projectors, just would need to build the screen and setup the software to distort to those specs. Does projection off of a spherical security mirror require a different type of image distortion or can Sol7 also do that or be made to do that?
http://local.wasp.uwa.edu.au/~pbourke/projection/isphere/

My plan would be to implement the screen as a modular design (a screen module would be 22.5 degrees per panel) made of PVC piping and screen material from eBay. Both would be affordable materials. Another alternative would be I would manual layup the panels as fiberglass composite, as I have the knowledge to do that too. Fiberglass tooling for a mold might be the way to go on this for me. I make 1 tooling mold and then wet layup all the panels to the common mold. It would give me consistency on the panels that way. Although that would probably make it a lot less portable. I'll end up doing probably what costs the least to accomplish.

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/6103/270screenva6.gif
Edit: Added an old pic I had laying around I made in Illustrator awhile back.

Bob Reed

01-04-2008, 12:44 PM

Yep, in order to distort it to look correct on the curved screen geometry you do lose some pixels, but the tradeoff looks very impressive. This is some of the stuff I've been reading up on lately:
http://local.wasp.uwa.edu.au/~pbourke/projection/ (http://local.wasp.uwa.edu.au/%7Epbourke/projection/)

I especially want to implement a variation of iSphere. Can I accomplish this in a 270 degree 3 projector setup (left, front, right only, no back) using Sol7? This would be pretty ideal for a fighter cockpit setup. I have the projectors, just would need to build the screen and setup the software to distort to those specs. Does projection off of a spherical security mirror require a different type of image distortion or can Sol7 also do that or be made to do that?
http://local.wasp.uwa.edu.au/~pbourke/projection/isphere/ (http://local.wasp.uwa.edu.au/%7Epbourke/projection/isphere/)

A security mirror? Have you tried this? I think they are far too imperfect for this and from what I have read would be way too much curve. But I know very little in this area.....

BHawthorne

01-04-2008, 01:09 PM

A security mirror? Have you tried this? I think they are far too imperfect for this and from what I have read would be way too much curve. But I know very little in this area.....

In the links I gave he's implemented most of those ideas in some form. I've not seen any mention of the security mirror impairing the projection enough to note. I realize that first surface mirrors are preferred. What works, what is preferred and what is most cost effective are 3 different things though. I think this is one of those situations where I just have to go and implement it and see how it turns out. A security mirror is around $40. A bunch of PVC piping is around $50. I could go to a cloth store and pick up a bunch of black-out curtain cloth to be cut and sewn to use as screen material to test it an affordable way. ;)

Only thing stopping me is the real-time distortion software. It would be ideal if Sol7 can do this.

I'm not afraid of doing silly experiments. Some that I've done has turned out pretty cool. :)

Edit: I found this info:

Where can I source a spherical mirror from?

If you want a standard spherical mirror do a google search for keywords "safety mirror" or "security mirror", you will find lots. Refine the search to your country domain and hopefully there will be a local importer. I suggest 60cm size [See question on mirror size]. These mirrors will not be first surface, that is, the mirror coating will be on the back of the mirror. The above will work for testing but the quality will be severely compromised, due to multiple light passes throught the clear substrate and refraction.

At the moment the best source of first surface mirrors is the following
Acril Convex Co Pty
Email: sales@acrilconvex.com
WWW: http://www.acrilconvex.com/halfdome.htm

The standard mirror I recommend is product 18535 HDM.600 60cm acrylic half dome.
The first surface mirror is product: 20534hB polymer coated half dome mirror w/first coat. It doesn't seem it is on their web page yet, so email them, say you were speaking to me and ask for the polymer coated first surface half dome mirror in 60cm size.

I normally suggest people get a standard (not first surface coated) mirror first from a local supplier (try to get the same 60cm version) and then once they are familiar with the technology buy the better mirror and reap the quality improvements.

There are various other companies looking at creating coating for the same acrylic mirrors but to date the ones I have seen are inferior.

http://local.wasp.uwa.edu.au/~pbourke/projection/domemirror/faq.html

BHawthorne

01-04-2008, 01:37 PM

It might just be easiest for me to go this route with Sol7:
http://local.wasp.uwa.edu.au/~pbourke/projection/cylinder/
http://local.wasp.uwa.edu.au/~pbourke/projection/cylmapper/

sbecker777

01-04-2008, 04:26 PM

BWHawthorne:
I've purchased CylMapper from Paul Bourke and his software is terrific. I run an Intel iMac so the software works well. However, Paul's software takes a totally different tack. It is for pre-warped images, not real-time simulations. We've conversed via email about our hobby.

Sol7 does the pre-warping so that Paul's CylMapper software isn't needed- BUT- if Sol7 does the pre-warping/blending, then using Paul's ideas for projection onto cylindrical or spherical screens become quite interesting and doable. I am also using PVC conduit and high quality screen material for the cylindrical screen. Paul's ideas help prevent light loss from fisheye lenses and so on.

Steve

BHawthorne

01-04-2008, 04:42 PM

I've sent a few emails to Paul Bourke awhile back with no success getting replies. I'd be interested in seeing his take on real-time use and particularly for homebuilt cost effective simulator solutions. Sol7 does look like it would work in many examples. Situations where Sol7 doesn't work in these example, I see as opportunities that it might expand upon to become more feature filled.

GSalden

01-05-2008, 03:26 AM

If a consumer version of Sol7 would be maximum 500 USD than they might sell hundreds of it.

I am curious how it will turn out.8-)

superconnie

01-05-2008, 12:26 PM

$500 is still a bit much but it's cheaper that a second or third projector. I'd say 500 is the absolute limit...

I wonder how many users of this forum would like to buy this software and what the maximum price is they're willing to pay. Could someone setup a poll???

As already written in the curved mirror thread, I have tested the Sol7 software and it is brilliant. Easy to set up and the result is just great. So I really hope the guys from Immersaview can find a solution with the price.... I think it's better to sell 10x$400 instead of 1x$4000. The more people know about this, the more copies they can sell.
I know a couple of cockpit builders in switzerland and I think they will be very interested too...

For my use some kind of "Sol7-light" would already do the job. 1 projector geometry correction without edge blending. Maybe that would be another way to go, to provide a version with reduced capabilities.

Christian

BHawthorne

01-05-2008, 01:35 PM

I want to buy it if the price is right. My personal preference would be around $100 per projector for my 3 projectors, not $600 per projector. I can afford $300, but not $1800. I donno that many people will do multi-projector though. At most I see people would use 3 projectors, more would be using 1 or 2. So, the pricing model based on installed projectors might actually cut them short on income. Maybe price match it with the cost of the Matrox TripleHead2Go ($250-300 USD). Default homebuilt pricing of $300 with the ability to use up to 3 projectors would be my ideal. That might be a good middle ground. Do away with the "per projector" pricing. It's going to be so rare that "per projector" pricing would actually bring them anything big with a homebuild userbase. More likely to get people projecting off of plastic mirror material (like in big screen tvs) and bending the projection to panoramic instead of multi projector.

ivar hestnes

01-05-2008, 01:59 PM

Fellow builders.

Remember that this software is originally aimed at a pro market.

There is probably a reason that the software is quite expensive. I dont think anyone should get any unrealistic dreams about the pricing. It has probably been alot of development for this.

It is very kind of Andy to take his time to research opportunities for our hobby. And if he can see a sim-builder market, I am sure he will do his best to get the price within reach for us.

Other vendors also have this kind of software, and often very expensive hardware must be bought aswell to make use of the software.

But get a price from 4000 down to 100 is like win the lottery.

Why should he bother to sell 40 copies for giveaway price when it is much better to sell one for 4000, when he actually can do that.

I think this topic should consist more of what this software can do and cant do, The needs we have, and so on.

I am sure Andy does his best so we can take part of this software:)

Matt Olieman

01-05-2008, 02:19 PM

I agree with Ivar... the software is a dream, as much as a dream of being able to purchase collimating mirror for my cockpit. Which BTW way would be the ultimate :)

I can't see them cutting down the software to lower the price. I looked at their demo video, and it's exactly what I would want, not anything less. Besides, I'm not sure if anything less would make it work the way we all want.

A poll or a survey is in order, perhaps with Andy's help or some of you, we can develop a survey.

Then perhaps a decision can be made if this is worth while investment for Immersaview.

BHawthorne

01-05-2008, 03:23 PM

But get a price from 4000 down to 100 is like win the lottery.

Why should he bother to sell 40 copies for giveaway price when it is much better to sell one for 4000, when he actually can do that.

Simple economics, only a rare few will buy it at the commercial cost, while he'll make more money in the long run by going with quantity sales. They achieve several things with pricing for quantity sales:

#1 market saturation
#2 product branding recognition
#3 an actual installed user community
#4 competative non-commercial pricing makes them the de-facto homebuild standard
#5 it affords them to make their own playing field and dictate pricing to their competitors in this homebuild market.

You won't get that via 2 or 3 people buying it. You also have to realize military/commercial and homebuild are a world apart. They're 2 distinctly different markets. He's not losing money from his military/commercial sales by quantity sales to the homebuilds. There is more money in it if they go quantity pricing for the non-commercial liscense.

Even if they made the same amount of money off of quantity sales vs keeping their current pricing structure, they'd miss out on all that #1-5. There are more advantages to going this route. I am willing to bet they price-point based on recoup costs and a specific profit goal. Those 2 things can still be achieved via quantity pricing in a new market that does not effect their original target market.

Also keep in mind, more installed userbase = more product feedback. Product feedback is critical for product success. They'll have a very good consensus on what is needed and how to best meet that need with an installed userbase community. With just 2-3 not much feedback is there. This helps them achieve success with the product and allows them to better adapt to the needs of people out there that are perspective buyers. I would personally gauge it as a greater success if 500 people were using it vs. 5 in homebuild settings. In my example people would know by default to buy Sol7 to suit their needs.

You price it outside of the reach of the average builder and you lose a lot in the process.

Matt Olieman

01-05-2008, 05:00 PM

Excellent points Brad!!!!

ivar hestnes

01-05-2008, 06:23 PM

I agree with that Brad:)

Hope Andy does too:)

BHawthorne

01-06-2008, 01:05 AM

IMHO, I believe from the simpit builder's perspective I've tried to pose a convincing argument for that situation to occur. It's mostly based on my observations of other hardware and software development communities been a part of over the years. It is a plausible route that could be followed. It is definitely the way I'd prefer to see it develop.

I really see that as a formula for a win-win situation for both homebuilders and the software developer. Putting innovative tools in the hands of the average simpit builders should be a goal to achieve. Not many other developers out there recognize this market and properly target it. For the developer, the customer base would give you enough feedback to make Sol7 more feature filled and help steer it in new directions that might otherwise not of occurred.

With that in mind, I'm not just all talk. I pledge right now to be the first one in line to purchase Sol7 if it would follow that income and community support design. :)

andyb

01-06-2008, 07:41 PM

Hi all, thanks everyone for all the positive comments on and off the forum.

We're certainly listening with open ears to all the arguments and once again, we're keen to support what seems to be a great community :D.

If possible, a poll or survey sounds like a good idea from our point of view. I think that this would also be beneficial for the larger community regarding general requirements and set-ups for sim visuals.

Some areas that are of interest to me include
- What current set-ups are being used (Monitors, LCDs, Projectors, multi-displays - monitors/LCDs/projectors, mirrors, any other solutions).
- Graphics set-ups (TH2Go, WideView, single displays)
- Numbers that would be interest in obtain Sol7 for curved displays
- Ultimate visual set-ups, whether a single curved projectors would suffice, or multi-projectors are the ideal.

Hopefully that should start the ball rolling, but I'm sure there are other equally important questions that should be added.

Matt Olieman

01-06-2008, 08:15 PM

That's a good start Andy. Any one else's recommendation to add to the poll, please do so now.

I'll gladly start a second thread with the poll.

BHawthorne

01-06-2008, 09:35 PM

Some areas that are of interest to me include
- What current set-ups are being used (Monitors, LCDs, Projectors, multi-displays - monitors/LCDs/projectors, mirrors, any other solutions).
- Graphics set-ups (TH2Go, WideView, single displays)
- Numbers that would be interest in obtain Sol7 for curved displays
- Ultimate visual set-ups, whether a single curved projectors would suffice, or multi-projectors are the ideal.

I use both TH2G and sometimes SoftTH. I have also tested TH2G+SoftTH to achieve 5-screen hardware accelerated surround. I mostly triple-head. The 5-screen and 6-screen things I've done were just proof of concepts to prove they can be done. I have the capability to run 8 video outs with a 790FX motherboard, but currently only have 3 of the 4 video cards need to achieve that. I also have several projectors, but I've yet to use multiple projectors at once on the same system. I've usually limited them to overhead single projection of games, movies or tv.

I want to use the multiple projectors and the TH2G and/or SoftTH to project on some type of immersive screen design -- be it circular screen or some sort of half-dome. As I've not had the capability to do this stuff before, that's where Sol7 becomes useful for me. My interest would be in building portable design that I could put up and take down as needed. I have the capability of implementing a screen, I just need to nail down what would best suit my needs. ATM, I have 2 InFocus SP5000 720p that are functional and 1 other that I'm needing to get a bulb for.

Implementing the mechanics of SoftTH into Sol7 might be a good idea to review. That would take the cost of buying a TH2G out of the homebuilders expenses while improving Sol7's feature set. It would make Sol7 more valuable in the sense that the customer would only have 1 purchase instead of 2, and that 1 purchase would have a lot more features. TH2G has a very strict set of hardware limitations in both screen refresh rates and maximum screen resolution. SoftTH is much more flexible than TH2G with mixing screens. I'd actually recommend taking it beyond the 3 screen limit as to give people more options that would exist only if you used Sol7. The new 3 and 4 PCIe 2.0 video slot motherboards have a lot of capability (6 or 8 video outs) that has not been fully exploited by a product. Most people only think SLI (or Crossfire) on those multiple PCIe slot mobos, so the surround-screen/projection is a ripe target market. There are no real functional answers to hardware accelerated 3d over more than 3 screens for the consumer market. The pixel buffer on the 8X00 series cards can do up to 8192x8192, so there is a lot of pixel buffer capability there to chop up and mold into whatever is needed 3-screens+.

I initially tried Sol7 last night on the MMO game Eve Online. It really impressed me with it's transparent use. Once you have it setup it just works. That is the really nice thing I see with this utility.

BHawthorne

01-07-2008, 03:22 AM

I think what first triggered my fascination in this kind of circular projection:

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/985/picardanddatainstellarcdp1.jpg

Star Trek has always had the best technological concepts. :D

superconnie

01-07-2008, 01:10 PM

ivar hestnes

01-07-2008, 02:37 PM

This is how my setup hopefully would look like.

Curved screen around cockpit, 3 beamers with tripplehead2go and using NicD`s method to get the sidewiews:)

What I would need from Sol7 which I assume is not in place, is possibility to adjust and warp all the three screens independent. Then it would not be so extreme difficult to align the projectors;)

So the nearly aligned beamers can be software adjusted to get a seamless picture and then give me a sweet ride in my 737 sproose goose:)

BHawthorne

01-07-2008, 04:06 PM

A colleague who's working with me had a completely different idea to use the Sol7 software.... a home planetarium! A hemispheric ceiling and the beamer projecting upright. Maybe with more than 1 beamer.
Andy should also contact some hobby astronomist forums, I think they will like the software too :-)

Christian

Yep, that is currently where I find all my dome information at. They have some pretty interesting projection ideas with that community that would transfer over well to simulators. Problem is, most planetarium software is geared to movie projection and not realtime. This would also help out that community greatly too. I really only see this catching on in that community in academic circles for use in science lab settings. There are several inflatable minidome planetarium systems but they're really expensive.

Whenever I google for dome information it's usually for planetrium or the Burning Man gathering. That Burning Man gathering information makes for some pretty entertaining reading...lol.

superconnie

01-07-2008, 04:16 PM

Now I have a very basic question... does Sol7 only work with realtime 3D programs and not with video?
I don't need that, it's only good to know in case someone asks.

Would it be possible to create a program that does this warping to everything that is displayed? The whole windows desktop for example and all windows, no matter what's in it.... on a pixel base?

Or is this more for those applications that work with an expensive hardware component?

Christian

BHawthorne

01-07-2008, 04:23 PM

Now I have a very basic question... does Sol7 only work with realtime 3D programs and not with video?
I don't need that, it's only good to know in case someone asks.

There are DirectX 9 rendering video players. Media Player Classic for example. Just pick your rendering settings in preferences. I just did this quick test with the evaluation copy:

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/4793/scratwarpjb9.jpg

sbecker777

01-07-2008, 06:01 PM

Also works with VLC and QuickTime Player

steve

Trevor Hale

01-08-2008, 09:48 AM

Since the Connie has relatively small windows, I would like to have one projector and a curved screen. The goal is to get to 180 deg view as close as possible. 140deg would also be sufficient and I think that has already been done with 1 beamer.
My cockpit should also be transportable, that's another reason for a 1 projector setup... it's easier to move and install.

A colleague who's working with me had a completely different idea to use the Sol7 software.... a home planetarium! A hemispheric ceiling and the beamer projecting upright. Maybe with more than 1 beamer.
Andy should also contact some hobby astronomist forums, I think they will like the software too :-)

Christian

Hey Christian.

I am using one Projector as well, but I think you will be lucky to get 100 - 120 degrees with a single projector. The image would be enormously distorted if you were able to stretch it to 180. But fundamentally the projector itself just won't be able to through 180 degrees of image.

Let us know how you progress.

Trev

Matt Olieman

01-08-2008, 10:08 AM

Yeah, I agree with Trev... to more you spread the picture, the bigger the projector pixels get. So you're screen will become a bunch of lighted dots.

superconnie

01-08-2008, 01:18 PM

I know that 180deg is not possible but 120 is also not too bad... I have to build a bigger screen and then do some experimenting.

BHawthorne

01-08-2008, 06:03 PM

Hey Christian.

I am using one Projector as well, but I think you will be lucky to get 100 - 120 degrees with a single projector. The image would be enormously distorted if you were able to stretch it to 180. But fundamentally the projector itself just won't be able to through 180 degrees of image.

Let us know how you progress.

Trev
I know SoftTH actually allows you to set some sort of FOV correction. Makes me wonder if vert and horiz FOV manual settings could not be added into Sol7 too. Only issue I see is you will lose a lot of resolution detail if you stretch too much.

737NUT

01-08-2008, 08:40 PM

You can buy 2 HD pj's now for what the price of one average PJ used to cost. 2 can get 180degrees no problem.

BHawthorne

01-09-2008, 04:28 PM

Here are some tentative drawings for 9ft diameter semi-circular screen:

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/6834/semicirclescreenrx3.gif

Tentative layout for 2 11.25 degree 3.75ft tall modular pieces, 8 4x4ft sheets to be cut out on waterjet pro:
http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/5977/225layoutxn7.gif

Sol7 should work great for pre-warping in this 3 projector setup. Need 3 projectors and SoftTH. My hope would be that Sol7 would encorporate SoftTH functionality into it so I could do this. My plan is to run the 16:9 projectors rotated 90 degrees for 720x1280x3. I get a 7.5ft projection height with a 9ft diameter semi-circle that way. 2160x1280 resolution.

What is nice about this idea is you could add a few more of these modules and keep on adding projectors in the future as you can afford. Start out with maybe 2 projectors, then pick up another projector when you see a good deal on eBay. This current design is for 16:9 projectors to maximize projection screen use.

My only confusion right now is finding a sheet material that'll handle being in the waterjet well and is dirt cheap 4x8ft. Wonder if .25" marine plywood would be ok. Or .25" marine treated MDF sheeting. I can cut this stuff very accurate and fast with the waterjet, but I don't want the wood warping and soaking up water.

andyb

01-11-2008, 04:17 PM

Sounds like a great set-up Brad.

Just a couple of things I would consider before embarking on final screen sizes;
- Not all DLP projectors like being mounted on their side so it might be worth checking with the manufacturer.
- Buying different projectors would more than likely result in different throw distances and hence possible awkward mounting positions.
- Also, using projectors with different lamp life can cause brightness, hot spotting and color issues (which could be compensated for in Sol7 in the future!), so if possible I would use the same brand and model.
- Whether you intend to use edge blending as that will effect the screen size because of the overlap regions.

Hope that provides some points to think about if you've not already.

BHawthorne

01-11-2008, 04:36 PM

I have 3 InFocus SP5000. I tried one yesterday at that 90 degree orientation and it overheated. No damage to the projector, It just went into overheat mode and turned off the bulb. Good call on checking that before I got too far on that design. I'm going to modify the design for 2 projectors instead. I should get almost the same screen coverage with 2 16:9. I just lose a bit of resolution when going from 3 to 2 projectors. It shouldn't be that big of a deal because I'm used to watching 720p TV with full wall projection, so the resolution would be about the same. My projectors are a bit older. They're 720p LCD technology not DLP. :)

Going with 2 projectors over 3 has many logistical advantages. Less consumables costs on bulbs, no TH2G box, one less projector to buy. Just have to horizontal-span the 2 projectors on a single video card in the nVidia control panel. Running 2 screens of 1280x720 is not going to significantly tax a modern high end single video card like the 8800 series. I'm used to running an 8800GTX 320 in triple-head, so dropping down to just 2 screens will be even better performance. This 2 projector type of setup will work more universally (transparently) on anything 3D, vs. the 3 projector setup I had in mind. It would also probably be ideal for use with Sol7 without any modifications. I'll test it out later this week projecting on the wall. I think I'm several steps closer to nailing down what design I'll end up with.

andyb

01-11-2008, 06:35 PM

All are great points Brad. The only disadvantage with going 2x 16:9 as apposed to 3x 4:3/16:9 is that the join (in edge butted applications) and the blend (in edge blended applications) is in the center of the view.

BHawthorne

01-11-2008, 06:49 PM

Here are a few horizontal-span tests I just did with Sol7. Seems like this is going to work for me for most of the gaming setups I do. It'll have the advantage not to be tied to just a single simulator app. I can do this in any game I want to play.

Eve-Online login screen in fullscreen:
http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/5708/dscf2134qz5.jpg

MSFS X
http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/3558/dscf2137au2.jpg

One feature request that I think that would benefit all Sol7 users would be a toggle key combo that would enable and disable mouse cursor correction to the same distortion as the video when in full-screen mode. That would help me greatly, because I use games that I have to click things in the UI on the full-screen often. Maybe remap where the cursor is drawn instead of remapping the mouse coordinates. Either way should fix the minor issue.

I'll add some more screenshots of other games later tonight as I play them. :)

superconnie

01-13-2008, 05:48 AM

If money is not the problem, you can also buy this:

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/2366/bild1po8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Alienware has built this mega screen. It uses DLP rear projection with LED illumination. Resolution is 2880*900. Price is not yet determined.....

Christian

AndyT

01-13-2008, 06:17 AM

Superconnie,
Where did you get that info? I SO want 3 of those.....

superconnie

01-13-2008, 06:47 AM

There is a german Web-TV station called ehrensenf.de and they have a daily program with all kinds of funny things found in the internet.
I don't know if you really can buy this screen, maybe you find some information on www.alienware.com... or send them an email to ask.

Tell us if you get a price for it :-)

@Brad
Do you have a waterjet cutter??? I just checked the Flow website and these machines are amazing but expensive. I'd like to have something like that in my hobby-workshop. I guess you're using it for a professional business.

Christian

AndyT

01-13-2008, 06:53 AM

Check it out...

http://gizmodo.com/341413/alienware-curved-monitor-looks-like-its-from-another-planet

Matt Olieman

01-13-2008, 11:06 AM

Look below at the arrows..... :( Not nice, darn :(
Needs Sol7 :)

http://mycockpit.org/photos/Alienwarecurvedmonitorarrows.JPG

superconnie

01-13-2008, 01:34 PM

Yes, it seems they have to work on that a little...

About Sol7... any news?

BHawthorne

01-13-2008, 05:55 PM

If money is not the problem, you can also buy this:
Money is always a problem, and besides I already own a couple of projectors. My example screens above were done with monitors because it's a pain to setup projectors and do tests with. Sorry if I confused anyone with those. ;)

Those look to be the fresnel lens edges in that Alienware box. IMHO, that monitor is a bad design knockoff. You can build the same thing with better resolution on your own. You guys did see it's only 2880x900 resolution? My guess is they're using 2 1440x900 DLP projection heads on that and using fresnel lenses to join the picture. There are many DIY surround monitor fresnel lens examples on the web that are higher resolution and cheaper than this.

AndyT

01-13-2008, 09:02 PM

They claim that the seperaqtions will be gone when it comes out to the public.

Care to share some links for those other display systems that are cheaper?

andyb

01-13-2008, 09:12 PM

AndyT

01-13-2008, 09:21 PM

Now all we need is for Light Blue to get those cigarette sized projectors out on the market. Lasers so no bulbs! And they are supposed to be cheap.

BHawthorne

01-13-2008, 09:25 PM

They claim that the seperaqtions will be gone when it comes out to the public.

Care to share some links for those other display systems that are cheaper?

There are a bunch of DIY TH2G + fresnel lens setup examples via google and youtube. 1440x900x2 would make that screen dual-head. They've just taken those DIY designs and went dual-head with it, it looks like.

BHawthorne

01-13-2008, 09:28 PM

Now all we need is for Light Blue to get those cigarette sized projectors out on the market. Lasers so no bulbs! And they are supposed to be cheap.

Only good if the lumens are 1200+ and the resolution is decent, or they're a waste of time. :)

AndyT

01-13-2008, 09:40 PM

I dont recall all the details but I think it had something like 1900 x 1200 res and the lumens were quite high since its a laser. But dont quote me.... Its supposed to be on the market already but obviously it has'nt made it that far.

Matt Olieman

01-13-2008, 09:44 PM

Andy, it's like a watched pot that never boils..... we just keep waiting for the good stuff, and never comes.... :) I'll take what I can get and go with it :) :) ALTHOUGH, we can keep dreaming :) Lot's of nice stuff out there.

Tomlin

01-14-2008, 10:10 AM

Hi all, just to let you know we're working towards a discounted version of Sol7 for all the home-simers. We'll keep you posted on developments .... hopefully shortly:D

On the curved monitor subject, there's also this from CES .... seems to have missed the main attention of the media in general, but looks remarkably similar (well ok, same thing, different badge) to the Alienware model!

http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/09/nec-has-their-own-2880x900-curved-gaming-display/

Guess the NEC marketing guy is in hot water ;)

I cant believe no one has commented back on this- AndyB- THANK YOU VERY MUCH for your continued, unbelievably unexpected, attention to this subject of ours. We have needed an elegant, yet affordable, solution to this issue for so long now that it's exciting to see some attention paid to it. I know that everyone here that's working toward the best visual system they can afford, will greatly appreciate your efforts, affordable pricing (hopefully) and continued support.