Hagstrom KE-72 vs KE-USB36 or 108 thoughts?

[XOrionFE]

I am thinking about getting one of these. I am currently working on a GA cockpit but it will also double for combat sims (LockOn and/or Falcon AF). It seems many folks have great success with Hagstrom products. I am a network engineer and should have no problem with the setup, programming, wiring, etc but I am curious why many of you seem to be using the KE-72 which requires daisy chaining with PS/2 keyboard versus using the KE-USB36 or KE-USB108 units. Many systems are starting to ship without PS2 at all. Everything is USB. Is there any advantage other than price with going with the KE-72? I am looking for experienced answers because I have never used any of their products. Thanks in advance for any insight.

FYI- I would like to be able to use pushbutton, toggle, and maybe a couple rotarys eventually (which is why I have been looking at the 108 also),

Thanks,
Scott
Sugar Grove, IL

[andarlite]

Scott

The KE-72 was available before the USB cards, so that may be a reason why you see more people using them. Even when the USB versions became available, most people tend to go with what they are familiar with so they will buy another KE-72 when they need to expand. I don't see any advantage of the KE-72 over the USB cards you mentioned..... as a matter of fact, there are probably more advantages to using the USB ones (eg. less cables for one.... if you are using the KE-72 with XP, then you also need a serial cable in order to download the macros). The USB108 also allows you to connect up rotary encoders (the KE-72 requires you to buy an extra interface board). I would go for the USB108 if I were you.
Make sure you also get the breakout boards.

Regards,
Henry

[XOrionFE]

Thanks Henry

That is kinda what I was thinking. Just wanted to make sure I wasnt missing something.

The 108 looks like nice board with a lot of features for the money. I think I am going to go for it along with one break out board for now and see how it goes.

Thanks Again!

[donrecardo]

Scott

The USB108 also allows you to connect up rotary encoders (the KE-72 requires you to buy an extra interface board).

Regards,
Henry

While I can agree with you for all your other reasons for recommending the USB version over the KE72, the quote above isn't actually accurate . There is an easy way to succesfully use rotary encoders on a standard KE72 without needing interface boards. I used them for some time to control radio frequencies on nav and com radios in my sim

See the other post on this forum called Hagstrom - Rotary Knobs

You might also consider the IOCards from Open Cockpits . A basic setup would be a master card plus USB expander which together cost about the same price as a KE72 . With this basic setup it gives you 72 inputs (toggleswitch , mommentary contact, rotary encoder), 4 analogue inputs for throttles flaps,spoilers etc + 45 outputs for LED's + you can plug 4 display cards into the master card to give you up to 64 7seg displays. If thats not enough you can plug 3 more master cards into the usb expander giving you 288 switch inputs , 180 led outputs , and the option to use 256 seven segment displays . Still not enough ? you can add as many usb expander / master card setups as you wish onto the same or client computers

I dont have any links with IOcards except as a very happy user . Hagstrom was a good reliable system but lacked outputs, for the price opencockpits.com deserve checking out

Don

[nricky]

Hi Scott

I would chose Opencockpits for my pit, it is very easy to use and it is not so expensive. And also very easy to use with Sioc.<o></o>
Cheers <o></o>
Norbert

[XOrionFE]

Thanks all.

I did take a look at the OpenCockpits stuff but had trouble figuring out what was what on their site. Also didnt want to go with oversees company and to tell you the truth, I couldnt figure out on the site where they are even located. I assume the UK? I am sure their stuff is great though. If I was building a heavy iron simulator it looks like they have awesome panels.

Anyway, I ended up getting the Hagstrom KE-USB108 with 3 breakout boards. They are in NY and I am in Chicago. I ordered regular ground shipping and got the stuff in 3 days! Wasn't cheap but packaged nicely with manual and software and looks pretty easy to work with.

Proof will be in the pudding of course. I havent started yet but will start messing with it this weekend. Now I need to get switches and am having a hard time figuring out what to buy not being an electronics wiz.

Going to stop by my local Radio Schack today or tommorrow.

Thanks to all that posted replies. I will try to post feedback on the 108 once I am up and running on a couple panels.

Scott
Sugar Grove, IL

[donrecardo]

Hi Scot

In answer to your question , Open cockpits are located in Huelva in Spain

I have always had things delivered by them using DHL . I order today it arrives first thing tomorrow morning .

Hagstrom make good reliable gear, that works well time after time . The big let down is it only takes care of inputs . sure you can control your aircraft using real switches but its a one way street, there is no feedback to your cockpit

With open cockpits gear the signals go both ways , switches send the info in, and lights, servo's, DC motors, stepper motors and 7 segment displays bring the data back to you

But not only that, for the cost of your USB108 +3 break outs you can buy from open cockjpits 1 USB expansion board ( that conects everything to your PC) + 2 masterboards ( they handle the inputs and outputs) . Now with that you have 144 inputs for switches and encoders + 90 outputs for LEDs + 4 analogue inputs for pots to control throttles,flaps , speed brake etc . and you still have two spare slots on your USB expander to connect another 2 master cards so doubling up the number of inputs to 288 and outputs to 180.
If thats not enough each master card can take 4 display cards and each display card will display 16 digits for your radio / auto pilot displays so with your 4 master cards each holding 4 display cards you could display up to 256 digits

Even if you never ever used the outputs and bought it just for the inputs alone its still better value than buying the Hagstrom stuff .

As to programming the open cockpits gear its very very easy , If you get stuck there are lots of example programs to use or just ask on the forum and some one will show you the way

Don

[XOrionFE]

Thanks Don,

Actually, you probably would have sold me on them except I had already ordered the Hagstrom. However, i will keep them in mind because if I decide I want the higher fidelity with feedback it sounds like they are the ticket. I would just sell the Hagstrom card at that point. I am sure there are plenty of buyers and I am not worried about the costs so much. Both options are extremely reasonable.

[XOrionFE]

Don,

I did get the hagestrom 108 and it works great. However, you were right about something. Now I would like to have some outputs (such as marker beacon lights, autopilot status lights, etc). I looked at the open cockpit stuff again and it looks like I could buy their new USB Outputs card and use for lights in conjunction with the what I already have. Do you know if this board can be used stand-alone or does it require the mastercard, etc...?

Thank you,

Scott

[donrecardo]

You can use the usb output card stand alone , just plug it into any usb port on your PC and program it up

They also do stand alone usb servo cards so you can also build working guages

Don

[XOrionFE]

Great

Thanks for the quick reply. The later would scare me to death :-)

[donrecardo]

The altimeter would be tricky as it has to rotate several times and the attitude gauge ( artificial horizon ) would require two servos. but RPM, fuel, vacuum gauges etc would be simple to build

Don

[gcompc]

I'm a new member but had read and kept up wit the board a little. Have had a generic Pit for a few years and am thinking about adding some swithches etc. I've ran across the Hagstrom vs Open Cockpit situation as well and really like the Open Cockpit stuff. The problem is that I noticed the Open Cockpit stuff uses coding memory areas and basically the FSPUIC codes and memory areas for MSFS for mapping, that's great if you only fly Microsoft Flight Simulator products.

I fly various sims and just want something that will put out keystrokes such a "G" for gear, does OpenCockpits programming languages do that? I know the Hagstrom does and assume the OpenCockpit stuff should to. But all you will find is talk and tutorials about the SOIC language and FSPUIC mapping. Any help or stick with Hagstrom?

[donrecardo]

Hi
Firstly yes , the IOCards will ouput key codes .

If you had a USB expander card and 1 Master card ( you can plug up to 4 Master cards into a USB expander) it would give you

4 axis controls for things like throttle, mixture, spoilers , anything that needs a proportional analog movement

+

72 inputs that can be used with switches, ( push button, toggle , rotary, encoders)

+

45 outputs for LED's so that for example when you press the landing gear switch you can have a red LED to show the gear is moving which then goes out and 3 green leds show gear is down and locked , You can even add a delay so they dont all lock at exactly the same time , just as they would do in the real world .

If you add 3 more master cards at a later date you will have 4 times as many inputs and outputs (288 inputs and 180 outputs )

As well as this you can if you wish add up to 4 display cards to each master card ( so allowing a total of up to 16 display cards) each display card can display 16 digits so if you want to tune your radios with real knobs and read the frequency on real digital displays you can do so , or pehaps set the HDG for the auto pilot and be able to read the exact frequency its set to.
Eventualy you could be able to fly your plane without touching a mouse or keyboard

As to your initial question , yes as well as getting switches to change settings directly in Fsim via FSUIPC you can tell a switch to send a key code just as if you had pressed a key on the keyboard.
As an example . I use a switch to send the keypress " ' " (single quote), its the one on an english keyboard that shares the @ key.
So I press my switch and up pops the ATC menu . Using 10 more buttons I can send keys 0 - 9 which are the choices offered in the ATC menu .Pressing the switch again closes the atc

If your using MS flight sims then programing iocards through FSUIPC is the way to go but for other sims that can only take keypresses you can still use the same cards but programmed for key presses , You would of course lose the outputs to leds and 7 segment displays etc

If you use Xplane you can now get XFSUIPC which is the FSUIPC equivelent for Xplane, so enabling outputs again.

The way I made my choice over IOCards and Hagstrom gear was simple .......

A Hagstrom usb 128 input card costs about the same as an IOcards USB extender + 1 Master card , so for cost there is nothing between them.

An Iocard setup and the Hagstrom will both do switch inputs so both are still similar in that respect but,then the similarity ends

If at a later date you decide to add outputs, servo's, digital displays ,motorised throttle quadrants etc you need to buy another system like the IOcards, so as they cost similar amounts why not get the one that does it all from the outset. Even if you never use outputs its cost you no more but its always there if you need it

I thought the programming might be difficult , at my age I am too old to learn something new and technical , but in fact its easy , I found it as easy as programming for the Hagstrom. Even if you get stuck there are loads of program examples, and if that fails there are lots of guys on the forum will happily sort you out

I hope that helped

Don

[gcompc]

Thanks a lot this is what I needed to know. I was sold on the OpenCockpit stuff but did not see any programming examples for simple key outputs which made me nervous. The pricing and features are fantastic compared to Hagstrom but with my luck I thought it was too good to be true and would only work with MSFS. I do plan to use the I/O with Flight Simulator but my other sims are just as important to me.

I planned on starting with some switches, knobs, rotaries then if I want, expand from there. The I/O would be optimized for MSFS but I just need basic switches and buttons for other sims, LEDs etc. don't matter for them.

You've help me make the right initial spending decision which is very important because it really sucks to have to do a change over it's sort of like "Here we go again" . When I have to do something the second time it's usually not as pretty as the first time. Thanks again for help, ordering the Master card and Expansion card immediately.

[donrecardo]

Thanks again for help, ordering the Master card and Expansion card immediately.

while you are getting your order sent You might want to order a few of there CTS 288 rotary encoders in the hardware section of their site. You cant use any old encoders but these cts 288 work absolutely fine with their master card
and are only 3 euros each
Basically you use 2 encoders per radio . one for Mhz( before the decimal point) and one for Khz( after the decimal point) .
I have 2 for each com radio ( Com1 / Com2) and 3 for each of the 2 Nav radios, the 3rd one being to set the OBS on the nav1 and 2 guages. I also plan to use one encoder to set Heading for the auto pilot to follow , and one to enable me to change the kolsman setting on the altimeter. there will be 2 more for auto pilot altitude and Vert speed. another to set my sqawk ( Ident) , One for ADF and another for the ADF's OBS setting.

The encoders are all metal construction and are small and neat. they also not only generate the output pulses but each one has a built in push switch . You can use the switch to swap between standby and main frequency

I am also using 7 segment displays on my cockpit to show all the radio main and standby frequencies , The OBS settings will also have 7 segment displays as I hope to make my own gauges using servos and wont then show the guages on screen so will need the OBS readouts to show whats happening.
I will also have readouts for Ident, DME and auto pilot displays.

Be carefull with the items you buy as the DHL shipping is done by weight . I tend to add items and check the shipping charge as its the same from 0-500 grams . so if it goes over that I take an item out .
I cant see the point in getting one item this week and another next week and having to pay two sets of shipping when I could have them both together for the same shipping charge. You can save a lot that way

I dont know if you saw it but I also sent you a Private message earlier

Ps when you get your cards If you need any help with programming Sioc for the MSFS I will be happy to try to help if I am able

Regards
Don

[gcompc]

Good Idea I'll check the shipping charges carefully, did not receive the PM though.