Breaking news: BA aircraft crash lands at heathrow airport.

[Geremy Britton]

A BA 767 crash landed short of the countries biggest airports. This is very unusual and i cannot figure out any possible cause apart from pilot error. see ofr yourself i cannot see why any pilot would carry out this sort of manouvre:???: No engine failure was reported

REMARKABLY EVERYONE SURVIVED LEAVING ONLY A FEW REQUIRING HOSPITAL TREATMENT

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/skynews/20080117/tuk-british-airways-flight-ba38-crash-la-45dbed5_13.html

[andarlite]

Actually it was a 777, not a 767.

Here's a link which has more details and a few better pictures:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/7194086.stm


Regards,
Henry

[Geremy Britton]

Actually it was a 777, not a 767.

indeed it was! I didn't realise it was an engine failure that will explain to abrupt pitch up on landing. Very rare incident considering the trple sevens safety record.

[Goose]

It is very good that no one died.

Plane ( G-YMMM ):
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1313756/L/

Crash pictures:
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1318132/L/
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1318129/L/
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1318128/L/

[Geremy Britton]

blimey! made it onto world wide photo galleries already then?

[magicaldr]

Must admit it looks like I tried to land it with everything working...

Still on a more serious note with a failure at such a key moment, all praise to the crew for keeping it level and thus saving lives.

[W9XE/Project777]

It will be interesting to find the real cause of the accident.

I think this is the first 777 crash reported. Anyone know of any other 777 crashes other than maybe ground support equipment.

[Tim]

Flight from China and engine quits during landing phase. Surely it wasn't fuel starvation, ie ran out of fuel?

[James Twomey]

When I was a boy, (Long Time ago) we had an airplane do the exact same thing at KPDX; only crashing 4-5 miles out from the landing strip and falling from the sky much farther. What the BA pilot is reporting sounds almost just like what the pilot from 25 years ago was saying happened to him. The crash back then was becuase he ran out of fuel. I'm not wondering if Tim isnt onto something there.

[magicaldr]

As a GA nut I don't know as much as you guys on the reporting in the cockpit of the bigger stuff. However I would have thought the FMC and Master Alarms would have gone off prior to running out of fuel?

[Geremy Britton]

especially such an advanced airliner such as the triple seven. i'm sure you do get warnings when low on fuel. But the pilot would have carried enough fuel to get back to heathrow AND reserves so i don't know what went wrong. From recorded footage no fuel leak can be seen. Aparently the pilot was "one of the most experienced working for BA" rumour has it that Fuel was also present in the fuel tanks after the crash so this seems unlikely also the fact that seconds before the plane landed it passed a busy perimeter road. and reports said the noise was "very loud" how could this be when both engines were cut out??

The chance of a double engine failure is very high (i think) 1/100,000,000!

I'm afraid you will have to draw your own conclusions meanwhile the aaib are working on the wreckage and conducting interviews.

[magicaldr]

On news tonight: Autothrottle asked for more power several times at 600ft up. The engines failed to respond. Crew disengaged auto throttle and manually requested more power, again no response from the engines.

Without power they missed the runway with the 1st officer bringing the plane in by hand.

Edit: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7196945.stm
much more detail in the AAIB statement

[dnoize]

interesting video of the T7 showing high pitch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYwQ4EHQY8Y&eurl=http://www.atcbox.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=15093&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=45


Stef

[dnoize]

video with the captain speaking on a news conference:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/newsid_7190000/newsid_7196500/7196599.stm?bw=bb&mp=wm&asb=1&news=1&ms3=54&ms_javascript=true&bbcws=2

Since the crash is under investigation he could not give any further information.

I have seen pictures where the RAT looked deployed, but it could also look that way because of the engines slamming into the ground. Untill the flightdata recorder has been analized any theory is no more that speculations.

Pictures or the RAT seeming deployed:
http://www.heathrowpictures.com/pictures/images/picturegallery_baw_b772_gymmm15.jpg

(server overload right now)

from the initial report of the AAIB


According to the Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB) at about 600ft "autothrottle demanded an increase in thrust from the two engines".

After continued demands for increased thrust, and the "flight crew moving the throttle levers, the engines similarly failed to respond", the report indicated.

"The aircraft speed reduced and the aircraft descended onto the grass short of the paved runway surface."

The AAIB said the plane was using an instrument landing system (ILS) approach, which allows pilots to follow a set path and be guided in, as it was coming into runway 27L at Heathrow.

Stopping at the very start of the paved surface of the runway, just inside the airfield boundary fence, the plane rolled on the ground.

As it did the right main landing gear separated from the wing and the left main landing gear was pushed up through the wing roof, the report said.

the report can be found here:
http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/latest_news/accident__heathrow_17_january_2008___initial_report.cfm


Well the most important thing is: no fatalities.


Stef





.

[phil744]

Nothing to do with me but it is now for sale on Ebay!

item 330205464820

[Joe Cygan]

Nothing to do with me but it is now for sale on Ebay!

item 330205464820

Good one!!!

[Geremy Britton]

HAHAHA:D

And to think people are bidding on it.
This is obviously a scam (don't bid:o)

[Goose]

I hope they will find the answer soon. Whole aviation society are waiting.

BTW. This auction should be reported to Ebay.

[Geremy Britton]

Crashes can take just months to solve but on the other hand can take tens of years.

It may come to having the whole B777 fleet grounded - who knows?

[Michael Carter]

Does the 777 use mechanical linkage from the throttles to the engine fuel control, or is that an electronic interface?

Something definately went wrong in that area somewhere.

[Joe Cygan]

Does the 777 use mechanical linkage from the throttles to the engine fuel control, or is that an electronic interface?

Something definately went wrong in that area somewhere.

No linkage its all FADEC (full authority digital engine control)

[Bob Reed]

Maybe they upgraded to Vista? Sorry could not help myself! I think the problem needs to be looked into as they could not get anything from the throttles yet it seemed the engines where running.... Will be interesting to see the investigation results.

[Geremy Britton]

i would certainly say it was something to do with avionics in the autopilot section. They were doing an ILS approach so it was in autopilot until the problem occured.

[Michael Carter]

But, they switched to manual throttle input with no responce.

I'm leaning towards an engine management computer problem. (FADEC)

I guess we'll find out soon enough.

[Westozy]

Maybe they upgraded to Vista? Sorry could not help myself! I think the problem needs to be looked into as they could not get anything from the throttles yet it seemed the engines where running.... Will be interesting to see the investigation results.

LOL, that's a good one, maybe it was a Symultry TQ!

I don't think jokes about it are out of place when everybody survived and it's basically a happy ending for everyone but the insurers. No doubt there will be more jokes as always. The landing gear going up through the wings must have absorbed a lot of the impact. Did it take out the ILS?

Gwyn

[Geremy Britton]

Or maybe the pilot got his Phigets mixed up!:)

[magicaldr]

Bit that scared me was the number of passengers who have had worse landings!! Most didn't realize it was a crash until the oxygen masks came down. Then again, been on the odd flight myself where the pilot seems to have flown it into the runway rather than land it.

Should have some indication from AAIB on the analysis of the flight data soon. I am sure they will work non stop on it, for the very reason that the whole aviation world is waiting.

Odd to think it going on right on my doorstep, I live right next to Farnborough where they are based.

[Geremy Britton]

The now non airworthy cockpit has now been removed from ebay after being on there 14 hours of it's scheduled 10 days. THe puzzling thing is the seller had sold 320 odd things and had 100% positive feedback:) -why would someone want to wreck that!!:???:

[Westozy]

I just got this sent to me from a mate.....

Initial Report AAIB Ref: EW/C2008/01/01 Accident

Aircraft Type and Registration: Boeing 777-236, G-YMMM
No & Type of Engines: 2 Rolls-Royce RB211 Trent 895-17 turbofan engines
Year of Manufacture: 2001
Date & Time: 17 January 2008 at 1243 hrs
Location: Undershoot RWY 27L, London Heathrow Airport
Type of Flight: Commercial Air Transport (passenger)
Persons on Board: Crew - 16
Passengers - 136
Injuries: Crew - 4 (minor)
Passengers - 1 (serious)
Passengers - 8 (minor)
Nature of Damage: Substantial
Information Source: AAIB Field Investigation

Following an uneventful flight from Beijing, China, the aircraft was established on an ILS approach to Runway 27L at London Heathrow. Initially the approach progressed normally, with the Autopilot and Autothrottle engaged, until the aircraft was at a height of approximately 600 ft and 2 miles from touch down. The aircraft then descended rapidly and struck the ground, some 1,000 ft short of the paved runway surface, just inside the airfield boundary fence. The aircraft stopped on the very beginning of the paved surface of Runway 27L. During the short ground roll the right main landing gear separated from the wing and the left main landing gear was pushed up through the wing root. A significant amount of fuel leaked from the aircraft but there was no fire. An emergency evacuation via the slides was supervised by the cabin crew and all occupants left the aircraft, some receiving minor injuries.

The AAIB was notified of the accident within a few minutes and a team of Inspectors including engineers, pilots and a flight recorder specialist deployed to Heathrow. In accordance with the established international arrangements the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) of the USA, representing the State of Design and Manufacture of the aircraft, was informed of the event. The NTSB appointed an Accredited Representative to lead a team from the USA made up of investigators from the NTSB, the FAA and Boeing. A Boeing investigator already in the UK joined the investigation on the evening of the event, the remainder of the team arrived in the UK on Friday 18th January. Rolls-Royce, the engine manufacturer is also supporting the investigation, an investigator having joined the AAIB team.

Activity at the accident scene was coordinated with the Airport Fire and Rescue Service, the Police, the British Airports Authority and British Airways to ensure the recovery of all relevant evidence, to facilitate the removal of the aircraft and the reinstatement of airport operations.

The flight crew were interviewed on the evening of the event by an AAIB Operations Inspector and the Flight Data Recorder (FDR), Cockpit Voice Recorder (CVR) and Quick Access Recorder (QAR) were removed for replay. The CVR and FDR have been successfully downloaded at the AAIB laboratories at Farnborough and both records cover the critical final stages of the flight. The QAR was downloaded with the assistance of British Airways and the equipment manufacturer. All of the downloaded information is now the subject of detailed analysis.

Examination of the aircraft systems and engines is ongoing.

Initial indications from the interviews and Flight Recorder analyses show the flight and approach to have progressed normally until the aircraft was established on late finals for Runway 27L. At approximately 600 ft and 2 miles from touch down, the Autothrottle demanded an increase in thrust from the two engines but the engines did not respond. Following further demands for increased thrust from the Autothrottle, and subsequently the flight crew moving the throttle levers, the engines similarly failed to respond. The aircraft speed reduced and the aircraft descended onto the grass short of the paved runway surface.

The investigation is now focussed on more detailed analysis of the Flight Recorder information, collecting further recorded information from various system modules and examining the range of aircraft systems that could influence engine operation.


Gwyn

[dodiano]

It is really hard for a Modern Airliner to have a Dual Engine Failure... We where discussing this with our Chief Pilot we had a flight just the other day and our guess was that probably fuel contamination or something to do with running out of fuel like an undeteceted leak of some sort... The Pitch up was simply the plane trying to use it´s aerodynamics to glide to the Runway... You have to give it to those guys Gliding a Heavy is not going to be easy... And they didn´t manage to get to the runway but everybody survived I still think it is a complete success although authorities might not think that way! If I get the official report cause we always do I will try to post it here!

Regards,

Roberto

[magicaldr]

Recorded data shows the aircraft had enough fuel and its automatic throttle and engine control systems had worked as expected, the AAIB said.

More info on this on BBC website: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7206596.stm

EDIT: and full details in AAIB update: http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/latest_news/accident_to_boeing_777_236__g_ymmm__at_heathrow_airport_on_17_january_2008___initial_report_update.cfm

[magicaldr]

AAIB make a new safety recommendation re 777. Time to update the checklists:

Safety Recommendation 2008-009
Boeing should notify all Boeing 777 operators of the
necessity to operate the fuel control switch to cut-off
prior to operation of the fire handle, for both the fire drill
and the evacuation drill, and ensure that all versions of its
checklists, including electronic and placarded versions
of the drill, are consistent with this procedure.

More info on the ongoing investigation on the AAIB and BBC sites:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7251435.stm

http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/publications/special_bulletins/s1_2008___boeing_777_236_er__g_ymmm.cfm

[RalphW]

From a Delta pilot who now tests weather related equipment:

"Here is the latest on the B-777 crash at LHR. All flights flying from the Far East to LHR on the morning of the crash entered an extreme cold air mass and had to descent to a lower FL to get out of the cold air. Some flights had to go down to FL 250 to get out of the cold air. Every flight across Russia that night and morning had to descend to keep the fuel from freezing but the BA flight in question did not. Investigators are looking into the theory the fuel temp bulb that sends the Fuel Temp Low Caution message to the EICAS may have been sending bad info.

Neither Delta nor the industry have a way to test the fuel temp bulb to see if it is sending the proper info. If the fuel temp bulb is inop that is easy to tell. However, if the bulb is sending incorrect info, that is another story all together"

[Matt Olieman]

Curious, what is the temp that jet fuel freezes. Never thought of that before.

[dodiano]

On the Airbus the temperature of JET A1 is -43 degrees Celcius minimum temperature and I have got the message on the ECAM couple of times about fuel temperature and not much you can do but I don´t think that would have been the cause to shut both engines just before landing... But who knows... Thanks for that info RalphW

Regards,

Roberto