When the Job becomes Dangerous...

[dodiano]

Check this video out guys...

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ddb_1204404185

Really Scary they blew the tip off the wing... Runway 23 WINDS 280/28 GUST 48 that guy shouldn´t have attempted that landing...

Regards,

Roberto

[Michael Carter]

I just caught that on The Weather Channel. Wild ride for sure.

[dnoize]

here's a picture from the same incident:

http://www.airliners.net/uf/536882887/middle/phpOltUWB.jpg

and a quote from a different forum:


Just called a colleague and friend who is on duty in maintenance, he has worked on the AC:

wingtip completely bent upwards, lower half of winglet bent inboard at about 45 degrees, slat partly grounded. No further damage.

We had a tough storm over here in Europe last weekend.

Stef

[luisgordo]

Real scary! Not usual to see a Lufthansa do this.

[Michael Carter]

Not a good position to be in.

[dodiano]

Actually that guy broke the law cause he attempted the approach exceeding airbus operating limitations...

Almost had a tragedy here...

[Geremy Britton]

yep i think it was windshear. the pilot was realy struggling to keep the a320 aligned on finals, should have declared a go around sooner than he did. the strong winds only came into force about 100ft i think so it was all very quick.

[Geremy Britton]

did land safly on second attempt though ...and no injuries which is always a primary concern

[dodiano]

He shouldn´t have attempted it... You have no idea how not good is the A320 with Cross wind it really sucks... Specially with that much gusts... Glad he laned but they couold have got killed...

Roberto

[PaulEMB]

Roberto,

Isn't this similar to the IB incident in Bilbao a while back?

Can you judge the possible wind shear effect that close to a touch down (I guess as reported by previous flights), or does it really depend on the current crosswinds as you suggest, in which case an alternative should have been the best choice?

[dodiano]

Actually it was a gust what made that plane almost get out of the runway trust me it tends to happen a Windshear would simply would have thrown that plane into the ground specially with that attitude plus you have your Enhanced GPWS that calls Windshear ahead which is an immediate go around as well as a Go around if WINDSHEAR is called by the GPWS ... We have certain places where gust and crosswind are a factor in certain months of the year... Now and this is Airbus limitations MAX CROSSWING FOR LANDING 33kts Gust 38KTS he intended to land with Gust 48 simply what I would have done is go around either hold till winds calm or go to my alternate... Now it is easy to judge seating in this computer but when you are in that seat in that plane that is a different story...

Roberto

[BlackWidow]

WOW I am sure glad I was not a pasenger on that plane. Imagine how scared the passengers were the second attempt. YIKES

[QF6228]

Thats some crazy pilot.

[Joe Cygan]

Thats some crazy pilot.

Must of had a hot date! ;)

[PaulEMB]

Thanks for the explanation, Roberto.

I haven't experienced this in the sim, but did yesterday in a KLM landing in AMS (from seat 15A in an F 100) where it was very gusty.

Hats off to you guys for getting us down safely!

ps the Lufthansa pilot probably needed to land urgently at the second approach not because he had a hot date, but needed a change of underwear :evil:

[Matt Olieman]

At least give the guy credit.... he was determined :roll:

[James Twomey]

Man-oman.... I bet that there is a lot of explaining to do now huh?

[Matt Olieman]

Anybody know if there is a video of the second attempt?

Matt O.

[dnoize]

Heres some more pictures of scraping the runway and the actual wingtip damage.

Btw the pilot flying was a 24 yr old female F/O

Stef

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/7726/undhp144mx3.jpg
http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/4033/undhp145uc1.jpg
http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/2745/undhp089zu5.jpg

the PF

http://www.bild.de/BILD/news/vermischtes/2008/03/04/pilotin/8705214-BU_2C03_2CPilot.jpg__MBHF,templateId=renderScaled,property=Bild,width=147.jpg

[Matt Olieman]

At least give the guy credit.... he was determined :roll:

I stand to be corrected. At least give her some credit, she's got b.... :roll:

Matt O.

[Michael Carter]

She's a heck of a pilot for as little experience as she must have under her belt.

Kept her head about her too I'd imagine.

[Lezam]

Wonder if they said the "we hope you enjoyed your flight" part :)

[dodiano]

That explains it all it was a SHE at the controlos!! LOL!! Kidding guys...

Roberto


Heres some more pictures of scraping the runway and the actual wingtip damage.

Btw the pilot flying was a 24 yr old female F/O

Stef

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/7726/undhp144mx3.jpg
http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/4033/undhp145uc1.jpg
http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/2745/undhp089zu5.jpg

the PF

http://www.bild.de/BILD/news/vermischtes/2008/03/04/pilotin/8705214-BU_2C03_2CPilot.jpg__MBHF,templateId=renderScaled,property=Bild,width=147.jpg

[Matt Olieman]

After looking at the video several times and looking at the pics again... I finally realized why the left wing went down. I'm little slow in my old age :)

This is probably what happened......

Left (probably almost full) rudder, aircraft yaws left (hard/extreme), Left wing looses lift, right wing lift increases lift, and probably coming in a little fast to compensate for turbulence. Then of course the opposite happens when correcting the situation.

I agree with dodiano, with that much of a crab and winds, should of gone around before reaching the threshold.

[Bob Reed]

Seems to me the Capitan should have made the call... I mean that is why he (or she) is the Capitan, right? And we do have to remember that we where not in the cockpit so we do not really know what went on... But the "BOX" does..... The fact she got it back in the air... Yes she kept her head about her... Or the Capitan took over.. Again as of now we do not know....

[aviaparts]

Well a few considerations about the previous posts, I seriously doubt that it was the co-pilot that landed this plane. Most airlines have regulations that in case of rough X-winds landings only the Captain is allowed to land, simply because they are the only ones who have 'severe' X-wind training.

And for all of us, it is easy to give critics on should or should not. If you look at the video, it is 1 extreme gust that blows the plane to the side up until that point the pilot was perfectly in controll. My two cents, little damage, no injuries, **** happens so credit to the pilot's (whoever was in controll)

[Geremy Britton]

i agree with marnix - i'm sure there ar regulations that are followed so to make sure the PIC is in control on severe landings.

P.s i would have thought the fact that the plane blew right across the width of the runway was when the PIC steeped off the rudder making the plane correct itself making a sidways movment over the entire width of the runway.

[Matt Olieman]

i agree with marnix - i'm sure there ar regulations that are followed so to make sure the PIC is in control on severe landings.

P.s i would have thought the fact that the plane blew right across the width of the runway was when the PIC steeped off the rudder making the plane correct itself making a sidways movment over the entire width of the runway.

In extreme cases like this and not counting on company policy and you were determined to land, for whatever reason. It would go like this.... main gear on ground, get rid of that lift (auto spoilers), then (in this case) left rudder as the nose comes down it should be center lined straight with runway when nose touches down.

Matt O.

[Bob Reed]

In extreme cases like this and not counting on company policy and you were determined to land, for whatever reason. It would go like this.... main gear on ground, get rid of that lift (auto spoilers), then (in this case) left rudder as the nose comes down it should be center lined straight with runway when nose touches down.

Matt O.

hehehe Done this a few times Matt??:shock:

[Goose]

It looks like she get gust wind on flare.

[dodiano]

Well a few considerations about the previous posts, I seriously doubt that it was the co-pilot that landed this plane. Most airlines have regulations that in case of rough X-winds landings only the Captain is allowed to land, simply because they are the only ones who have 'severe' X-wind training.

And for all of us, it is easy to give critics on should or should not. If you look at the video, it is 1 extreme gust that blows the plane to the side up until that point the pilot was perfectly in controll. My two cents, little damage, no injuries, **** happens so credit to the pilot's (whoever was in controll)

Yupe most AIRLINES have that regulations about landing with certain wind parameters... On my Airline Pilot Flying, Pilot not flying... Unless Captain feels uncomfortable with the person aside he can ask for the controls is his plane it happens but rarelly... Trust me I have made several X-wind landings on the same plame with Gust of up to 30kts but never 48kts... is in the Books... that was a go-around period it was a bad call that cost a wing and almost the aircraft guys... And you are right a final gust was the one that threw that plane... But you are right we shouldn´t judge and teh girl was Flying LOL!!

Regards,

ROBERTO

[Goose]

I don't know when she got her first certificate but at age 24, flying A320 for Lufthansa?
But from my point (without any knowledge about her carrier) I think she is a goo pilot. Age 24, flying for Lufthansa an A320... And i think the experience she got during this landing, will help her to in carrier.

I agree, don't judge her.

[dodiano]

I started flying the Bus Age 25 buddy... Age doesn´t matter it was a bad call from where I stand...

Roberto

[Goose]

What are you flying? A320?

[AndyT]

How long does it take for the engines to spool back up? Looks to me like whoever was flying decided to go around before they hit. 3 or 4 seconds before at least. I can see the debris and stuff flying off the tarmac behind them as the engines come up for the Go Around. Maybe it was a bad call, but at least they tried to get her back in the air before the incident happened.

[Goose]

Up to 7-8 seconds before they get full thrust. Or am I wrong?

[AndyT]

Count backwards from the wing smash to see where the decision was actually made at. Quite a bit before they hit.

[dodiano]

Yupe I fly the A320 almost 3000 hours on the bus... It spoold up fast to TOGA like 4 to 5 seconds it is fast the older planes took a bit more... In the meantime the engines are thrusting up...

[AndyT]

Ok, so overcoming inertia and spooling up takes maybe 6-8 seconds. So count back and see when the pilot decided to TOGA.

[Matt Olieman]

Spooled up after left wing touched ground. They screwed up by not following procedures.

You guys are not looking at the aerodynamics of this.... Like I said before, it has nothing to do with an air gust. She YAWED the aircraft to the left, stalling the left wing. Yes there was a 40+ crosswind, but that's not the reason the wing touched the ground. Same when the right wing touched the ground, she yawed the aircraft to the right, stalling the right wing and at the same time increasing lift on the left wing.

It's all about procedures, procedures, procedures and more procedures. For those of you who have a pilot certificate, you know, flying is about procedures and when you don't follow them, you're coming down.

I hope this topic is not about blame, it's about, how did this happen. She recovered out of a difficult and dangerous situation, I congratulate her on that, but both pilots did not follow procedures.

And, yes, I've done my share of crosswind landings (extreme ones), not in any large aircrafts.

Matt O.

[737NUT]

Looked like they needed more right wing down and left rudder! :) They say they don't cross control for passenger comfort but sometime i think you need to forgo the comfort for safety.

[dodiano]

She was actually thrown to the left and dropped the wing cause as she started to flare and hit that pedal to center the plane with the runway the gust hits and that makes the plane to be thrown all the way to the left, rudder Left and Aileron left ... Trust me with Winds, snow and Rain screw passenger comfort, Safety is first...

Crabbing is normal and the Grounds speed mini is mantining speed for wind correction, the Fly by wire system is controlling rudders and ailerons, you only have to center the flight director bars and they´ll take you all the way down, that is autmatic you are not pressing the pedal there just centering the bars with the sidestick... now when she steered the nose to the left to center it the gusts hits, she flared the plane a bit high and probably cut the throttles back loosing engine power make the plane more succeptible to the gust..

That throws the wing and hits the ground by this time she thought she had the runway gained... fights the plane back to the right cause the gust has throwned her away of the runway center using right rudder and aileron and they apply power at the same time though she used a lot of airleron almost hitting the right wing I think and then they perform the go around...

It was a difficult situation guys!

Regards,

Roberto

[Michael Carter]

It was a very difficult situation. I've landed in gusty conditions, but not a 50 ton airliner, but the same principles apply.

It can get quite scary very fast and you have to have your head about you. Actually performing the manouver without even thinking about it.

I once nearly put a 172RG into the grass at KCPS. If that had been the Mooney it would have looked a lot like the first picture posted. The gust just pushed the airplane off of the runway heading for the grass.

I had run out of control to counter it and decided to abort that one without even thinking about it. I flew it at an angle off of the runway until the gust subsided where I could turn it back to the right.

Since this topic came up, that day has been running though my head constantly. That is the only close call I've ever had with the ground.

[Joe Cygan]

Actually it was a gust what made that plane almost get out of the runway trust me it tends to happen a Windshear would simply would have thrown that plane into the ground specially with that attitude plus you have your Enhanced GPWS that calls Windshear ahead which is an immediate go around as well as a Go around if WINDSHEAR is called by the GPWS ... We have certain places where gust and crosswind are a factor in certain months of the year... Now and this is Airbus limitations MAX CROSSWING FOR LANDING 33kts Gust 38KTS he intended to land with Gust 48 simply what I would have done is go around either hold till winds calm or go to my alternate... Now it is easy to judge seating in this computer but when you are in that seat in that plane that is a different story...

Roberto

Here is my stupid opinion, lol.

Would have to agree with Roberto on this one, thinking go around would have been best option before the date on the runway thingy.

I’m thinking if you would have to land in that wind condition your best bet would to be plant that plane on the runway like a carrier landing to give as little ground affect persuasion as possible, but then again what do I know.

I’m just glad everyone was safe and I hope both pilots continue a lustrous career in aviation.

[aviaparts]

I wonder, would it be easier to land a Boeing in these conditions ? I am used to fly the 737 by hand. Just for fun I stepped into an A320 level D for 1 approach and landing. The first thing the instructor told me was ... stop correcting so much, the fly by wire doesn't follow anyway. A total different way of flying. Without FBW it is fighting untill on the ground but you feel every correction on the yokes or pedals.
Roberto, you will certainly know the difference ...

[dodiano]

I have flown Boeing´s on Level D simulators only the 777 and 737-500 and the -700 series, now as you said the A-320 you just don´t have to be correcting it all the time... The Fly By wire will handle it for you as you said.

When I started flying the Bus I used to do that of course I came from Flying Cessna´s and Navajos but big jets as Large Twin Engines you mostly fly it with AIleron rather than being playing a lot with the rudder towards the end...

Now regarding Boeing´s everal of the older Captains in my company they have flown the 737-200 and the -300 series as well as the 767 and they say Boeing flies much better with Wind than the Airbus does... But the basics are the same you follow the flight director by correcting with the Flight controls Aileron and some Rudder but is not that you have to correct that much either, You do weel the Rudder on the Bus you don´t have any force feedback on the Sidestick of course so that is a bit more weird when you are used to conventional Aircraft, But I will have to say not from experience but from hearing that Boeing has better x-wind handling capabilities.

Regards,

Roberto