Regional & Corporate Jet Alternatives

[PaulEMB]

Hi all,

I was just replying to a thread from Eric Tomlin on the new Lear shell, and almost hijacked his thread into a discussion about RJs

So I thought I would start a new one - I started by saying "Best of luck to all RJ builders - I see lots of comments that echo my feelings from a couple of years ago."

I have been an RJ fan for over 4 years - after seeing an EMB 120 cockpit on the FDS website, I decided I had to have one!

At the time, I was living in Lisbon, Portugal, and flying 3-4 times a week as a passenger in the ERJ 145 operated by Portugalia. I bought the Feelthere 145, and was hooked!

Now, 4 years later, I am committed to the RJ - I have a 5 meter long, full scale ERJ 145 front end in my garage, with more money spent than I care to add up. (and many happy hours spent building, and lately flying it!)

The key to a successful home cockpit build is the software that links it to MSFS, and then, via a variety of possible interface methods, makes it work when you press the switch instead of clicking the mouse.

There are not many alternatives - Project Magenta, some great ideas from Stoney3K, and little else for a full cockpit setup.

There are a lot more Lear projects out there than there used to be - still only a couple of ERJ ones I know of, and some, also increasing (Thanks to Joe!) CRJ projects.

What do we lack? Honeywell clone software!

Why not start to make a user group to show PM and other possible developers how big the market is - it may help the guys at PM to look at their planning for software upgrades, or encourage others to look at the market.

I know Enrico has this on his long list, but the Boeing users, professional and hobbyist, are, rightly, as the biggest (and first) user group being addressed currently, and we can see some good improvements in the latest releases.

However, if we RJ users had a bigger voice?

Please post your comments or views on the Heavy/RJ debate - Remember, we haven't yet got to the VLJ/Corporate debate - A full size cockpit that fits into your spare bedroom - medium range, and full glass cockpit displays - and you can land where you want to - anywhere! Why build a 747?

Don't forget - the software drives the hardware! - If there was a viable RJ software available, hardware suppliers would add the available panels to their range.

Lets debate, not complain about what isn't there to suit our needs!

[Kennair]

Hi Paul,

I timely thread as I have recently been debating my cockpit rebuild. I was very close to building a CRJ pit, partly due to the availability of hardware from Joe but when I looked into the software side there seemed only to be PM available and unfortunately not without its problems. It doesn't seem to be as well supported as the Boeing/Airbus stock. I too am not knocking PM here and understand that they have to prioritise their time and effort to where it's most needed and do a fine job in the process.

In the end I decided to retain and update my PC12 instead (and very happy with the decision to remain with GA at this stage), however if there were an RJ glass along with a similar PM Systems solution I would be very interested for the future when I decide to move into the "semi-heavies". Even so the Next Gen PC12 utilizes a Honeywell Primus glass cockpit, so if there were a sim emulation I would be interested even now.

There are many clever software designers such as FSXpand that hold great promise, but even so it's still the Boeing fleet that is mainly accommodated (again, due to demand). Once again both Joe and Hispapanels realise the need by making RJ panels available and I guess if there is more of a voice, the software might come too. I'd love to hear what others may have done to accomodate their RJ/Glass pit.

Just my 2c worth,

Ken.

[Tomlin]

I echo the most part of both these posts here in this thread. How nice it would be to have a really feature laden Honeywell Primus package. Yes, the PMRJ leaves a bit to be desired, BUT I have been very happy with using it so far. I really hope that they push forward through whatever is going on the past while and continue support for this software since there is a growing base of Learjet, CRJ, and other 'RJ' sims.

If I had the money to invest...boy o' boy...

[alaxus]

Apparently PM is making a CRJ suite, which uses the Honeywell suite. Don't know when it will be done though.
I did mention to Enrico that there are quite a few lear builders out there, and that the lear avionics suite is not to far off the CRJ one, and that maybe he could make a few mods to the CRJ one to suit the lear.

Time will tell though.

[Tomlin]

Apparently PM is making a CRJ suite, which uses the Honeywell suite. Don't know when it will be done though.
I did mention to Enrico that there are quite a few lear builders out there, and that the lear avionics suite is not to far off the CRJ one, and that maybe he could make a few mods to the CRJ one to suit the lear.

Time will tell though.

The CRJ suite is Rockwell Collins...ERJ is Honeywell. In my opinion the PMRJ software is very close to the Honeywell Primus 1000 software suite, with just a hand full of lacking things like CAS messages and some ND options. However, it's not complete yet till some of those issues are worked out and hopefully they will one day get a version of the UNS FMS and autopilot created for it. Then it will be really nice. Here's to hoping as Paul stated, there's tons of new LJ builders, plus a growing roster of CRJ builders too and we all need some accurate software. If the RJ software was worked on, maybe it could be like the Boeing suite, where it covers a few different types in one package, I.E., the RJ package would represent the CRJ/ERJ/LJ software.

BTW, although far from perfect, I really am glad I got the PMRJ software as it looks great for what it is at this point.

[Michael Carter]

I know the feeling well Paul.

When the retro- movement strikes a little farther down the road in the sim software industry as it has with American auto manufacturers in the last few years, maybe the first generation Boeing drivers will have something to look forward to as well. But, that's probably wishful thinking.

Most of us are making out OK though, but not fully 100% functional yet.

Not a lot of sophisticated logic involved there. You'd think it would be more popular. Too many kids developing software having never flown on a 707, 720, 727, or DC-8 I suppose.

More's the pity.:(

[Kennair]

And as I mentioned earlier it's not only the RJ's that are going for the likes of Rockwell Collins or Honeywell Primus suites, GA is more and more heading down this road due to it's decreasing cost and reliability. I would consider that an RJ suite should begin to get as much, if not more development energy due to the larger fleet of simulators now vying for it.

Ken.

[Tomlin]

On the heels of what BSW (Mike) was saying, it dawned on me a few days ago that as these newer aircraft come online, simulating them avionics-wise will get easier but building a cockpit for them will likely get harder. Case in point, look at the new Cessna Mustang, the PC-12NG, and some other new designs. They are having the interiors designed by the same companies like BMW, etc. to give a luxurious feeling to them, hence the hard-to-build parts wont be the panels per se, but the trim parts that are all compound curves and complicated radiuses versus flat angles. All the old(er)/current aircraft have fairly easy to build liner parts/trim. But take a good look at the new aircraft coming out and they almost all have vacumm formed parts where the panels are not, looking more like a darn automobile than an airplane. Therefore, I think that we will see most of the home sims staying the models that are current or older, but very little 'new' aircraft from this point on (at least those that look like a car interior). The only other way would be if the parts suppliers provide the new interior parts by purchasing expensive vaccum forming machines.

WOW! I just realised that this is post number '747' for me!

[PaulEMB]

Eric,

Well done for achieving post "747" :p

Makes me look lazy----I reckon the interiors can be relatively easily achieved by using the MDF/fiber glass/cloth and resin methods used by many builders - look at what they achieve on "Monster Garage".

Imagine "Monster Sim Hangar"!

Meanwhile, on the various posts on PMRJ, it is becoming evident that many items we (I) thought were present in PMRJ by reading the extensive PM documentation for the Boeing, and the short section on PMRJ, are not functional in the RJ suite, even when used with the full MCP/CDU/PMSys software for the Boeing.

I recently contemplated buying the Boeing GC to get better funcionality - EICAS messages, Trim, WX/Terrain etc, but gave up the idea having tried the demo, as it didn't fit the screen layout.

Lets hope that Enrico and team land a commercial contract that will allow us hobby builders to benefit from the development of more features in an RJ/GA suite.

[Tomlin]

Eric,

Well done for achieving post "747" :p

Makes me look lazy----I reckon the interiors can be relatively easily achieved by using the MDF/fiber glass/cloth and resin methods used by many builders - look at what they achieve on "Monster Garage".

Imagine "Monster Sim Hangar"!

Meanwhile, on the various posts on PMRJ, it is becoming evident that many items we (I) thought were there are many functions we thought were present in PMRJ by reading the extensive PM documentation for the Boeing, and the short section on PMRJ, are not functional in the RJ suite, even when used with the full MCP/CDU/PMSys software for the Boeing.

I recently contemplated buying the Boeing GC to get better funcionality - EICAS messages, Trim, WX/Terrain etc, but gave up the idea having tried the demo, as it didn't fit the screen layout.

Lets hope that Enrico and team land a commercial contract that will allow us hobby builders to benefit from the development of more features in an RJ/GA suite.


Hear, Hear!!! Thanks Paul!

[alaxus]

The CRJ suite is Rockwell Collins...ERJ is Honeywell. In my opinion the PMRJ software is very close to the Honeywell Primus 1000 software suite, with just a hand full of lacking things like CAS messages and some ND options. However, it's not complete yet till some of those issues are worked out and hopefully they will one day get a version of the UNS FMS and autopilot created for it. Then it will be really nice. Here's to hoping as Paul stated, there's tons of new LJ builders, plus a growing roster of CRJ builders too and we all need some accurate software. If the RJ software was worked on, maybe it could be like the Boeing suite, where it covers a few different types in one package, I.E., the RJ package would represent the CRJ/ERJ/LJ software.

BTW, although far from perfect, I really am glad I got the PMRJ software as it looks great for what it is at this point.

Your right there Eric,
I doubled checked my emails I got from enrico, its the ERJ he is doing atm.
Sorry for the misinformation, my apologies, shoulda looked before posting :oops:. Had CRJ on the brain for some reason.
That being said though, its the MCP we need fixed, ie having IAS hold without having the autothrottle on. I have over 500hrs using the pmrj suite and it does what I need it to atm.

[alaxus]

And as I mentioned earlier it's not only the RJ's that are going for the likes of Rockwell Collins or Honeywell Primus suites, GA is more and more heading down this road due to it's decreasing cost and reliability. I would consider that an RJ suite should begin to get as much, if not more development energy due to the larger fleet of simulators now vying for it.

Ken.

Speaking of which, check this out.
http://estore.mc.com/vistanav/

cheap too. Honeywell has bought into it as well, so looks like the technologies will be incorporated in the honeywell suites.

[Tomlin]

Your right there Eric,
I doubled checked my emails I got from enrico, its the ERJ he is doing atm.
Sorry for the misinformation, my apologies, shoulda looked before posting :oops:. Had CRJ on the brain for some reason.
That being said though, its the MCP we need fixed, ie having IAS hold without having the autothrottle on. I have over 500hrs using the pmrj suite and it does what I need it to atm.

That's okay Jeff, but I SO TOTALLY AGREE about the Flight Guidance Controller (mcp) with the IAS hold :-) I also agree that other than those issues that havent been completed or added in yet, it works good.

[alaxus]

Slave to FMS for the HSI would be nice to.

[Badge]

I was all set to go with the latest and greatest and do the 787. A few weeks ago I was introduced to the real Citation Mustang and I fell in love. I plan on building the mustang now as it is far more economical than an airliner in both money and space. I have always been a lover of the business jets and very interested in the VLJ concept since the Mustang and Eclipse were still on the drawing board. The only hard part about this whole project will be the shell and liners as you guys have pointed out. However take in the fact that panels and software are so easy we builders will have plenty of time to work on the shells and liners.

Also for those not in the know Flight1 will be releasing a Mustang for FSX and they have partnered with Cessna and it looks amazing!

I will have a mustang site up soon with a wealth of information.

[Tomlin]

Man, I love those Citations! Using a G1000 type software will make it very easy to do the Mustang, with some ingenuity of course for the hardware end.

Best of luck!

[vpilot]

Err... I hope you all don't mind me posting in a thread that is 3 months old :???:

I've downloaded Stoney3k's Honeywell suite (which atm is the PFD, MFD and EICAS) and have been testing it and boy does it look promising. I provided him with some feedback on the Dutch forum where he announced his project (http://www.flightdeckbuilder.nl/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=89), he responded he is still working on it and seems determined to deliver a complete package including even the FMS. Btw, in the link I posted you can also find some screenshots of his ongoing development. So far, afaik he is the only one that has shown actual progress amongst the developers promising to deliver a proper Honeywell RJ suite.

A bit on the side: I have one question about the PM RJ suite: on the screenshots I see a RMU but how functional is it? For instance, does it allow you to store frequencies into memory, can you use the "switch sides" function and does the system backup functionality work? If you use the PMRJ, what is your experience with this small but great gauge?

Regards,

Sander

[Tomlin]

Sander, thanks for the post on Stoney's development. Im about to go check now. Let me get back with you on the RMU for the PMRJ if someone else doesnt beat me to it.

[vpilot]

Great idea, the more feedback he can get from ppl willing to test it, the better his release version will be (and a great motivator to keep at it, as well :) )

[Tomlin]

I registered at that site and I still havent recvd my activation page yet. I would really like to see this package.

[vpilot]

You got mail :)

[Tomlin]

Thanks, I got it and now have to install and test!

Back in the day, I was aware of Robin (Stoney) working on this software but then he kinda dropped off the face of the internet and I never saw anything else about it.

Glad to see he's still around!

[Adino]

Guys, what type of conspiracy are you planning there, I wanna be part of it:roll:

Is het gebasseerd op de Citation avionics of de CRJ?

[vpilot]

Hiya Adino,

I just helped Eric get a copy of the february version of Openrj, he had problems registering at flightdeckbuilder.nl. I just saw you found the forum and the software too ;)

Stoney's Openrj is based on the Honeywell Primus 1000 glass cockpit, which is used in Embraer ERJ's, and afaik in Learjets and CRJ's too. Not sure about Citations. If someone has more accurate info on that, please correct me if I'm wrong.

Cheerio,

Sander

[Adino]

Thx vpilot,

yes I found my way indeed..sneeky, sneeky....;)
Hey, that is great news because the Premuis 1000 is being used in the midsize citations as well including the XLS which I'm building. I asked Stone3k if he could work on engine tape style gauges for the citations, I'm sure it will be easy to do since he is working on F100 gauges that also use similar type for the engines. That will certainly fill the gap and give him an edge when he is ready to distribute.

rgds,

Adino

[Tomlin]

Hey guys,

The LJ45 certainly uses the Honeywell Primus 1000 avionics suite. If you would like to learn more about the LJ45, have a look at some of the documents available here: http://www.rcoco.com/sdoc/

[rt72]

Sweet! I had given up hope on this.

[SBG]

I registered at that site and I still havent recvd my activation page yet. I would really like to see this package.

Anyone else having problems getting registered? I've been waiting a week or so for my account to be activated.

Thanks,
Jim

[vcimmino]

I managed to get the OpenRJ package but was unable to make it working.
"Can't start this application" message. Can anyone help me about?

[vpilot]

You need the Visual C++ runtimes, which you can download from Micorosft (http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b2da534-3e03-4391-8a4d-074b9f2bc1bf&DisplayLang=en)
After that, the package will run.

Cheerio,

Sander

[vcimmino]

Thanks a lot, It's working now. In truth I watched it had some missing dependancies and downloaded relatives dll but maybe that had to be registered.