Potential buyer: VNAV problems, A/P problems?

[737aqua]

Dear PM staff and users,

I am a potential buyer of your software. I am considering building a 737, however I have been reading this forum and have become alarmed regarding the problems facing the current autopilot build. It appears that Vnav is not working, and given that I love to fly via the correct real-world instrument procedures, I feel that this would not be acceptable. Therefore, I am asking if you have any intention of fixing VNAV and other critical autopilot functions in order to simulate the real thing. It is disheartening to see that other desktop sim companies seem to excell at this. Given the un-realistic performance of Vnav and other A/P functions (i.e, overspeed on descent, un-realistic mode changes, etc that I have read here) I will wait to see if this is resolved before making my decision to buy.

Does anyone know if the problem is being worked on?

Does anyone know if AST for airbus has a properly working A/P and LNAV/VNAV? If this is the case, I may have to change to airbus and go with AST despite my love for Boeing.

Thanks All
Aqua

[Bob Reed]

Keep in mind this sort of post needs to be emailed to PM support as well as PM does not frequent this forum. It is a users forum.

[mauriceb]

Just my 2 cents here. Despite all the outstanding issues with PM software, you can still have a blast with it even with all its limitations. Yes, it would be nice if all was working as it should, but you can still fly around the world with it as is. In some ways, it is even good to get around its limitations by following manual procedures, so, as a somewhat biased PM user, I would still say go for it now if you can afford it.

Also, as I found out on many occasions, the faults were PEBCAK (Problems Exist Between Keyboard And Chair) :). I blamed PM several times when it was my fault all along.

Maurice

Disclaimer: The opinions stated here are mine alone and not necessarily those of this organization, nor of those who frequent it. They are not meant to offend, harass, belittle or otherwise upset anybody in any way, shape or form and I regret profusely & apologize in advance if anything I said in any way, at any time or to anyone caused distress to anybody or could have caused distress after they thought about it for a while.

There, that should pretty much cover it :D. And I really got to stop this & get some work done on my sim. As many people seem to know, Boeing's really require regular maintenance. ;)

[737aqua]

Thanks, however I know that not having a proper working Vnav/Lnav system would, for me, defeat the purpose of putting so much into a new simulator. As i said, I like to fly using instruments, especially using the various A/P modes. Thats the main thrill for me.

I would hate to shell out so much and have no assurance that anything will ever be done to address the autopilot issues. I really wish someone from the staff would address these concerns. Has anybody gotten a recent response on the VNAV bugs?

That is why I am asking if its worth going the AST route. If anybody has experience with its a/p, please inform me if it acts normally.

I believe it would be prudent for PM to address these issues, as for many, the issues would scare away potential buyers and help the compeition.

Thanks
Aqua

[Bob Reed]

Thanks, however I know that not having a proper working Vnav/Lnav system would, for me, defeat the purpose of putting so much into a new simulator. As i said, I like to fly using instruments, especially using the various A/P modes. Thats the main thrill for me.

I would hate to shell out so much and have no assurance that anything will ever be done to address the autopilot issues. I really wish someone from the staff would address these concerns. Has anybody gotten a recent response on the VNAV bugs?

That is why I am asking if its worth going the AST route. If anybody has experience with its a/p, please inform me if it acts normally.

I believe it would be prudent for PM to address these issues, as for many, the issues would scare away potential buyers and help the compeition.

Thanks
Aqua

What are you using to fly now? Is AST doing a Boeing software?

[737aqua]

Nope, I'm just a desktop flyer right now...but I'm seriously considering building a cockpit for the 737, however if software dictates a better experience on airbus, I may have to switch preferences.

[mauriceb]

Aqua,

I don't know about LNAV/VNAV issues with Airbus and since you are thinking about AST, it looks like you are talking Airbus. All I can tell you in that in the Boeing's, the LNAV/VNAV problems are really not that big an issue in my experience. I did do a flight around the world in a Boeing using VNAV & LNAV in real time & with real weather and I lived to tell about it :-)

But if you want 100% functionality & no bugs of any kind, then you will be very disappointed of course. But I don't think you will find anything that is even close to perfect except the multi-million dollars simulator software and even that is not perfect.

Again, I'm talking about PM software & Boeing's. This could be much worse (or better) with Airbuses, so Airbus folks would need to chime in here and relate their experiences.

Maurice

[737aqua]

Thanks -- No, I do not want PM's Airbus software. I would only use AST Airbus software or PM's Boeing software. As I said, I will choose an aircraft to build based on the best software available. I do not want to build a 737 and end up with poor software.

Maurice, that is good to know, but why arn't the staff working on a fix for the VNAV bugs that everyone has talked about on this forum? Isn't the autopilot the most important part of the systems to work on for them? The overspeed bug on descent sounds very bad.... and there are more in the VNAV problems post.

Does anybody know if there are any other choices for 737 systems that work better?

Thanks
Aqua

[mauriceb]

Maurice, that is good to know, but why arn't the staff working on a fix for the VNAV bugs that everyone has talked about on this forum? Isn't the autopilot the most important part of the systems to work on for them?

Thanks
Aqua

I'm afraid only PM can answer that one. And as I said, the autopilot works fine for the most part. I just learned to get around its limitations and I'm sure that eventually, these will be resolved as well

[Matt Olieman]

Maybe it's my misunderstanding, I didn't think the VNAV issues were that big of a deal. There were some instances where "goto direct" while in flight caused some system lock ups. It was situational, if I remember correctly, otherwise I don't recall it being a major problem.

I agree with Maurice, there certainly are many other ways of automated flight rather then just VNAV. I personally never had a problem with VNAV.

Except for this past year, I've used Airbus PM for almost 5 years and am very satisfied. I do understand there are still improvements to be made, which I trust PM will.

Aqua, in the end, it's your decision.

[737aqua]

Ok, but there is a thread a few pages back entitles "VNAV problems" that is quite long -- they are the issues that I'm talking about, like overspeed on descent. Also, several users complained that the functionality makes it too unrealistic to fly with VNAV, especially with aircraft like the 744 which is unrealistic in VNAV under PM. So there is a problem with it, unless it has been fixed since then. Perhaps you just don't expect true realism from the autopilot.

What is the reason why the autopilot is so hard to fix? Is it just too difficult to model when there is only 1 person programming the systems? Is it too complex?

[JonathanRichardson]

Hi

Whilst I can understand your concern, I think you are putting too much emphasis on VNAV if it is the one thing stopping you moving forward. The software offers you an awful lot for the price point, the next step up will cost you 160,000USD for Boeing software suitable for installation in FTD. PM gets you pretty close - especially on the B737 for a fraction of that. There is no way we intend or can compete against the real a/c software - I think a little reality check is required from time to time - although I agree in a perfect world.... it would be nice.

The reason you are seeing a lot of posts re VNAV is that you also see it with regard to the 747 (and other Boeing types) and VNAV has been a little confused due to the cross type support requirements. For us, it would be *much* easier to focus on one VNAV logic and drop the others - then you might have more perfection, but someone would be upset. So, we take it in steps and see how we can eventually support the cross types amongst everything else that has to be done and 'try' to keep everyone happy. I'm afraid this takes time - and a lot of it.

We do not put VNAV high on our agenda (at this time) you have two other automatic vertical modes to use. Even VNAV INOP won't stop a 737 departing real world. For the heavy a/c types, then yes I sympathise more, for those guys the lesser VNAV is more frustrating because it is much more fundamental to ops. On the 737, it can go either way, of course very widely used now - but at the level of GC familiarisation training not a absolute. If you are so worried about VNAV, and this is the one thing preventing you making a 737 v Airbus, I would suggest that (probably) by the time you get anywhere near finished with your simulator, any 737 VNAV problems will have been further developed/improved given that average home user sim builds take over two years.

New builds will be released shortly for Boeing, but we are not on "VNAV" related problems right now in respect to these new releases we are still keeping our attention on matters we consider of greater importance and won't get sidetracked I'm afraid. Plus we have a lot of emphasis on Airbus as well at this time.

Regards
Jonathan Richardson

[737aqua]

Thank you for your explanation. However, if you are not intending to fix Vnav for a while, I would hesitate to buy your software until I see some improvments (waiting 2 years maybe) or else be forced to look for alternatives. I'm sure you can understand, but instrument flight is very important to me, and I like to fly using Vnav, etc.. no matter how important it may be or not. I can do it on the desktop 737 packages without any issues, and I would feel naked going back to the primative A/P modes despite having a full cockpit. It would feel very incomplete to me.

I realize Vnav system logic is hard to model, but other companies seem to be able to do it well for the desktop market, so it must be doable...no? Why can't you get it right and they can?

[Bob Reed]

Thank you for your explanation. However, if you are not intending to fix Vnav for a while, I would hesitate to buy your software until I see some improvments (waiting 2 years maybe) or else be forced to look for alternatives. I'm sure you can understand, but instrument flight is very important to me, and I like to fly using Vnav, etc.. no matter how important it may be or not. I can do it on the desktop 737 packages without any issues, and I would feel naked going back to the primative A/P modes despite having a full cockpit. It would feel very incomplete to me.

I realize Vnav system logic is hard to model, but other companies seem to be able to do it well for the desktop market, so it must be doable...no? Why can't you get it right and they can?

You asked for an explanation. One was given. Desktop apps are nothing like PM or other flight system vender's. Let this thread rest!