Missing CDU MSGs (of some importance)

[eudoniga]

Among the very long list provided with the true 737 CDU documentation/manual/guides, here's a selection of messages that do not appear on the PM CDU for the time being, at least not during my flying activity of the last two/three years; some should occur in quite common situations, simply to face some possible pilot's forgiveness/distraction.

- APPRCH VREF NOT SELECTED
- ARR N/A FOR RUNWAY
- CHECK ALT TARGET
- DES PATH UNACHIEVABLE
- ENTER IRS POSITION
- LOC CAP ACTIVE
- NOT ON INTERCEPT HEADING
- OVERSPEED DISCONNECT
- PATH DES NOT AVAILABLE
- RESET MCP ALT
- RW/APP CRS ERROR
- RW/APP TUNE DISAGREE
- TAI ON ABOVE 10° C
- THRUST REQUIRED
- UNABLE NEXT ALTITUDE
- VNAV DISCONNECT

Any simmer who, under the pertaining circumstances, noticed the appearance of one of these is kindly asked to state it, so that the list can hopefully be reduced.

A description of the conditions giving birth to these messages can be found in Bill Bulfer's 737 Cockpit Companion Guide.

Happy landings,

[Michael Carter]

It might be that if you are flying the aircraft correctly you will never see these messages.;)

[eudoniga]

... but after learning about these MSGs, I realized that they could have helped me a lot, if only they were there !!!

Flying liners cannot be a one-man-show, that's for sure; even when it's only a simulation ...

I guess we've all experienced, to some extent, the difference, and what it feels like to share the home cockpit with a fellow simmer, going together through the checklists, the briefings, etc. !

:p

[NicD]

Thanks for these. There's also "Drag required".

Anyone who can fly a 737 and never see that message while on descent is a freak of nature :)

[Michael Carter]

Wouldn't that mean (for a normal descent) that airspeed wasn't managed properly or descent was started too late? Or possibly a controller request or direction?

I don't really know how all of the computerized aircraft fly, but I can tell if I need a little drag by checking the airspeed indicator.

[NicD]

Yes thats' right, all those things are factors. It's just that the 737 is one of the slippery-est passenger jets around. So where something like a 767 would be more forgiving of a late descent, the 737 will not and airspeed control is a challenge on descent unless everything is managed just right and goes to plan. VNAV mode often struggles to fly a fully managed descent to the FAF in the 737... and that's the case in real-life too.

[eudoniga]

Sorry, not this one !

"DRAG REQUIRED" is already in the box, I've seen it a few times when my descent - according to FS ATC orders - had begun somewhat late, and the FMC couldn't get the programmed desc path simply by pitch/power, but needed some additional drag by the speedbrakes.

Here we are talking about apparently MISSING messages, that are those NOT being emitted by the Project Magenta CDU when the conditions are met.

E.g. "RESET MCP ALT", which I have never seen on my PM CDU, should appear when cruising in VNAV and getting close to the T/D, but the ALT selector has not been set to a lower altitude yet, therefore preventing the FMC from beginning the descent at the computed T/D; that could be acceptable and also desired, without a proper ATC clearance, or a good warning/reminder if you're already cleared for descent on discretion.;)

[flightdeck]

Hi there,
I also realized the missing messages in the scratchpad in an earlier stage.

I asked Engravity if it was a possible hardware failure (in the CDU) and PM, and got the answer, that the appearance of operational messages in the CDU is NOT supplied by their software.

[dnoize]

Hi there,
I also realized the missing messages in the scratchpad in an earlier stage.

I asked Engravity if it was a possible hardware failure (in the CDU) and PM, and got the answer, that the appearance of operational messages in the CDU is NOT supplied by their software.


That is NOT correct !

Our CDU will display everything what the add-on software TELLS it to display !

Including scratchpad messages.

Its simply the PM software not sending these messages to the cdu. Nothing to do with the cdu hardware


operational messages in the CDU is NOT supplied by their software.

just to make things clear, the cdu does not contain any fms logics itself. It just acts as a display terminal (just like a real cdu with the fms under the floor). Hence it is fully depending of the add-on software for the messages.
there is no such thing as "their software" (unless by "their"you mean pm ;-) )

If you look at other 3rd party software like Level-D and PMDG, you will see that they fully utilize the scratchpad.

Its just one of the things on the to-do list for PM.

But i dont think thats the issue with Eudoniga's list. His lists consist of messages that are not displayed AT ALL in PM, not even in the software version.

Stef

[flightdeck]

Hi Stef!

Please read my post carefully: I already mentioned, that the PM SOFTWARE does not provide these messages, I never said, that this is hardware related.

Once more, to be clear: I asked Engravity AND PM and got the answer by PM, that their software does not provide any "Scratchpad Messages" :!:

[dnoize]

Thanks Rene, i missed the
and PM part ! My bad ;-)

Really dont understand why it doesnt though, because the protocol is extremely simple and its very easy to incorporate. Not different than any of the other lines !

But back to topic: the missing messages in PM.

Stef

[NicD]

That's strange... I've never seen "Drag required" on the PM CDU, and I have been looking for it. Must be differences between our setups or something?

[flightdeck]

Hi Nic,
that is what I've tried to describe:There are NO messages in the scratchpad, this is NOT hardware related, this is according to Project Magenta NOT implemented in their CDU or RCDU Program. Therefore we DON'T see any of these messages in our CDUs! :wink:

So, if "Eu" does, I would be surprised!

[Trevor Hale]

That's strange... I've never seen "Drag required" on the PM CDU, and I have been looking for it. Must be differences between our setups or something?

I see it all the time in my aircraft.

Especially when I am past tod and late on the decent

keep in mind though, I have modified my cdu file for my aircraft. The term is actually " DRAG REQUIRED" it is there.

Trev

[NicD]

Hmmm... thanks guys... the plot thickens! I'll do some more ini file investigation and see what I can find.

eudoniga - could you advise what CDU version and aircraft file you are using, and, a list of the CDU messages that you do ordinarily see?

[Trevor Hale]

Hmmm... thanks guys... the plot thickens! I'll do some more ini file investigation and see what I can find.

eudoniga - could you advise what CDU version and aircraft file you are using, and, a list of the CDU messages that you do ordinarily see?

I would take a picture of my cdu if I could get to it right now, but sitting here thinking about it I think it says "MORE DRAG REQUIRED"

When I get it running again, As I am in the middle of a rebuild, I will take a picture of it.

Trev

[ian@737ng.co.uk]

i have to support stef here.... the CDU cannot display messages if they're not being sent. i am using the engravity cdu with the PMDG's own instruments. all these messages appear in the scratchpad, so if the PMDG is sending the messages and the CDU is displaying them, then the problem has to be in the software delivery.
so come on PM, give the lads a break (oh and the messages).
regards from wales..... ian

[eudoniga]

eudoniga - could you advise what CDU version and aircraft file you are using, and, a list of the CDU messages that you do ordinarily see?

Sure !!!

My CDU ver is 394, that's the latest actually available.

My CDU aircraft type is the 737-700 by Steve Reyling, downloaded from the PM site, to which I made some enhancement (basically it was split into two versions, so that it could display the new style EFIS or the classic PFD/ND).

The MSGs that I usually read on my CDU are:

WAYPOINT ABOVE CRZ ALT: Occasionally; I've never figured out what's this, maybe the flight planner's fault ... but it doesn't influence navigation one single dime !

NO ACTIVE ROUTE: after every landing, when RTE data are automatically flushed.

USING RESERVE FUEL: quite often and in short final, if my fuel calc was accurate enough; in fact I expect the trip fuel to be gone by touchdown, with HOLDING (3000 Lbs)+ALTERNATE (variable)+MINIMUM LANDING FUEL (2000 Lbs) being still there as the reserve.

DRAG REQUIRED: like I explained a few posts before.

UNABLE CRZ ALT: Seen it once or twice, when I entered too high a flight level and too short a route ... lack of a good flight planner !!!

There might be a few minor ones, but frankly I cannot recall now ... I'd rather have the FMC Guide here !!!

regards,
Eugenio.
p.s. to René: you don't get to see MSGs on the scratchpad unless this option is made active via dedicated setting in the DISPLAY settings of the CDU MENU ... the other way, that is what you have, is that MSGs are kept in a dedicated page, accessible via INDEX menu.

[flightdeck]

p.s. to René: you don't get to see MSGs on the scratchpad unless this option is made active via dedicated setting in the DISPLAY settings of the CDU MENU ... the other way, that is what you have, is that MSGs are kept in a dedicated page, accessible via INDEX menu.Thanks a lot, I'll give it a try!

[eudoniga]

"INSUFFICIENT FUEL" when the predicted fuel at destination goes below zero ... oh oh !!! :rolleyes:

"POSITION UNCERTAINTY": in reality I guess it has to do with loss of IRS alignment and similar; in simulation, the CDU doesn't see - thanks to WideFS - where the a/C is ... maybe FS down or not yet started.

[NicD]

Thanks for the info ! I will check my settings too

[eudoniga]

Yep !

Press the MENU key (press twice in order for secondary options to appear), then to the SETTINGS page, the MESSAGES parameter must be set to ON ...

This should be enough for messages to start their appearance on the scratch pad !

Regds,
:p

[NicD]

I checked this setting and messages was definately set to "ON" yet I still see no messages in the scratchpad. Very strange! :(

[flightdeck]

Same here! You're not alone! ;)

[NicD]

I've noticed that when a message happens the MSG light will light up and when I go to INIT REF and MESSAGES I can see the message there. But it still does not display in the scratchpad.

[ivar hestnes]

I have had the same issue earlier, and the I discovered that the scratchpad was actually there. But it was outside the screen. I did some stretching and adjusting on the screen settings, and then it was perfect. I use FDS CDU with 5"sony ps1.

Try to enter these numbers in your cdu.ini and see if it helps. (backup first).

OpenGLFullX=-7
OpenGLFullY= 30
OpenGLFullZ= 0
OpenGLFullWidth= 0
OpenGLFullHeight= 1
OpenGLFullFontSize= 0
OpenGLFullSpacing= 30
OpenGLFullScratchPad=-20
OpenGLFullTitleText=-6
OpenGLFullRotate= 0
[Max]
Full=Off

FullTopmost=Off
FullTopmost=Off
FullNoFrame=Off
InvertFull=Off
ScreenTop= 0
ScreenLeft= 0
ScreenHeight= 5175
ScreenWidth= 9600
TextTop= 353
TextLeft= 475
TextWidth= 6933
TextOffset= 980

[mauriceb]

I have had the same issue earlier, and the I discovered that the scratchpad was actually there. But it was outside the screen.


Good thought, but this would only be true if Nick was not able to see anything he types in the scratchpad either. As long as you can see what you typed in the scratchpad, then the scratchpad area is positioned properly on the screen. I assume of course that Nick can see what he types :)

Maurice

[ivar hestnes]

Actually I could see what I was writing in the scratchpad. But could never get the messages visible there.

The msg lamp lit up, but no messages visible in the scratchpad. But after I adjusted the screen settings, it worked fine. So I think it has something to do with it.

But can never be sure;-)

I really hope Nick is able to see what he write:D. But it would be interesting to see if my setting numbers could help:)

( I did a little typo in my post above. I write that my scratchpad was outside my screen but it was not. Only the messages appeared outside the screen).

[NicD]

Thanks Ivar! I hope you can read this coz I can't see what I'm typing .. lol ! :D I will give those settings a try and see how it goes.

I did consider that the screen size might be too big but given that I can see what I type on the CDU I thought that it must be ok - like Maurice suggested. There's always something to learn in this hobby for sure!

[NicD]

Update ... have tried all sorts of experiments with CDU settings and still no scratchpad messages are showing. Grrrr!

The PM people have worked on it - but no joy there either.

Does anyone else who uses the FlyEngravity CDU see scratchpad messages? If so - could you post your CDU.ini settings please.

[flightdeck]

You're not the only one, Nic, I am using PM CDU and PM RCDU together with Engravity CDU hardware - no messages in scratchpad either!

[dnoize]

Didnt we allready discuss in the beginning of this thread that the hardware is capable of displaying them (see pmdg, level-d, precision simulator, etc), but that PM just does not implement it ?

Stef

[NicD]

Yes Stef that's right. But PM says it *should* be working - I've been in communication with PM support on this in the past month. So I can only assume that it is implemented. And given that other users are reporting that it does work (think they are FDS CDU users?) then it must be implemented, but something is going wrong in between.

Strange though - I can't see scratchpad messages even on the software CDU. Wierd :mad:.

[dnoize]

Yes Stef that's right. But PM says it *should* be working - I've been in communication with PM support on this in the past month. So I can only assume that it is implemented. And given that other users are reporting that it does work (think they are FDS CDU users?) then it must be implemented, but something is going wrong in between.

Strange though - I can't see scratchpad messages even on the software CDU. Wierd :mad:.

That is weird...because it IS implemented in the software (not all, but many). At least, i have seen it in the past. Havent looked at the software in ages.
However, i dont recall having them EVER seen on the hardware cdu. So hence my conclusion that it isnt implemented in the code to send it to the engravity cdu. If it is, there must be a few bits wrong, because i really have never seen any scratchpad messages in the hardware cdu.

But really strange that you dont see them in the hardware either.

Stef

[bravolima]

Hi all,

I don´t see any messages on the scratchpad either. Usually when Engravity msg light shows up, I go via INIT page to MESSAGES. Sometimes I see a note "unknown message" or something like this.
First time I noticed this when using the 737-800.
Any comments on this ?

regards

Bernhard (LSZH)

[kenlie_no]

msg light lights up on my Flyengravity CDU, but no messages, this is strange...

[mounty]

I know this is a little off the topic but all I keep reading about in relation to PM is all of it's faults or missing info. I'm wondering why individuals pay $1,000.00 plus for a piece of software that isn't fully functional, especially if you can set up PMDG as Ian Sissons has done and have it pretty much 100%, or use other systems that have the overhead logic as well.

Would like to know your opinions.

Rob

[ivar hestnes]

Thats an easy answer Rob. :)

It doesnt exist any 100% solution for simulation. No addons for FS has 100% functionality. PMDG 737 does not have aft overhead. PM has at least some of this functional. nd probably more to come.

Lack of messages in CDU is mostly a settings issue which has to be sorted out from the end user, because we all have different equipment to run our simulators.

Look at it from the bright side. The professional simulators which cost multiple millions, dont have the option to fly at more than 24000 airports, and it is not compatible with Vatsim/Ivao or networks with realtime controllers and realtime traffic.

So for many purposes, our simulators offer better training to future pilots even if some functionality is lacking and some faults are represented. Also the multi-million machines have faults.

So I think that a 1500 USD PM suite is a good compromise for a home-builder to get it as real as possible for reasonable money. Also Ian has issues that are not easily solved with using PMDG for a simulator. He have spent a huge amount of hours to make this work, so spending some money on PM is what we can choose to save lots of researching.

Whatever software option we choose, it will always be issues to solve:)

[Trevor Hale]

Not to mention, you can't get any 7-segment displays or led indications from the PMDG. So in order to light lights in the overhead you need to get very creative, as you can't pull that information from the PMDG.

Trev

[Bob Reed]

Another reason is that when PM came out there was no PMDG. And then when PMDG came out there where no computers that could run multiple monitors to get all the PMDG stuff on different screens. The power to do this at home has come only within the last couple of years. You have to keep in mond that compermise is always needed in cockpit building.

[eudoniga]

Let me bring it again onto surface ...
Any new message seen ?