PFC (Precision Flight Controls) [Archive]

View Full Version : PFC (Precision Flight Controls)

Matt Olieman

07-25-2008, 06:18 AM

I'm just curious and don't hear/discuss much regarding PFC (Precision Flight Controls). I'm a PFC Cirrus II Console owner/user and thought I would do a survey find out if anyone else uses their products.

Matt Olieman

RalphW

07-25-2008, 06:25 AM

Matt

I just purchased two of their Jetliner 737 pedestal yokes. I tried to join their forum but was refused access because I did not buy direct from PFC so I sent them a note saying that I thought this was poor customer service. They did not reply so I am not impressed although the quality of the product is not in doubt.

Regards

Rodney

07-25-2008, 08:27 AM

I also own a 737 Pedestal Yoke. Purchased it about 9 years ago from them. 2 Years ago it went haywire on me, I emailed them, they asked me to call them which I did. The controller was a first gen, and they sent me a current gereration with cables and switches (free). Many emails back and forth. It worked up to a couple of months ago when either static or the pots wore out. But anyway, I had great prompt support from them. I'll get new pots and rebuild it again sometime.

AndyT

07-25-2008, 08:31 AM

I know who they are but their stuff is outside my budget.

ryanf

07-25-2008, 08:41 AM

Hi All,

I have a cirrus II console - very good quality and reliable - thanks also to Peter Dowsons interface software.

I know its expensive but its great to have a fully assembled and working console of such high quality so I can do some GA flying while I continue with my a320 build at a slow pace!

One small issue I have with the console however is that it is designed to sit on a desktop but when moving the yoke, the console can move also due to the internal spring being fairly stiff. This is needed to give realistic feel but I have had to tape the console to the desk and I am thinking about drilling the case in order to install fixing bolts.

Matt - did you solve this problem?

cheers,
Ryan.

Matt Olieman

07-25-2008, 08:48 AM

I use a rubber matting used for kitchen cupboards, works perfect and my unit does not move :) Also I have an adjustable table to lower the unit, more realistic to the yoke level in a cockpit.

I too am quite pleased with the unit and do lot of GA flying, including online. Although I fly using FSX I've got a few glitches with the landing gear lights going off and on. How about you Ryan?

Matt Olieman

ryanf

07-25-2008, 08:54 AM

Hi Matt,

I use FS9. I don't have any gear lights since I didn't purchase any of the avionics or the RIC so I can't comment about that issue.

I have mostly been flying the Flight1 cessna172 so I have not had to worry about landing gear. Just starting to use the flight1 baron58 but having trouble getting it working - think its something to do with how the aircraft is initialised.

cheers,
Ryan.

Peter Dowson

07-25-2008, 09:48 AM

I've got a few glitches with the landing gear lights going off and on.

I think that's a symptom of having a version of the firmware made before they added the motorised trim control facilities (as used in the 737NG cockpit). The commands my PFC driver sends for the motors are misinterpreted by the firmware. You need to turn off the motor action in the PFC options -- should have been off by default. This is the relevant part of the PFC DLL User Guide:

<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><meta name="ProgId" content="Word.Document"><meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 12"><meta name="Originator" content="Microsoft Word 12"><link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CPETERD%7E1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><link rel="themeData" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CPETERD%7E1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_themedata.thmx"><link rel="colorSchemeMapping" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CPETERD%7E1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_colorschememapping.xml"><style>  </style> Trim/shaker motors fitted: Only check this to enable the facilities in PFC.DLL which drive the stick shaker motor (on stall or overspeed warnings) and trim motor (to turn the trim wheels), if you have these fitted. Do not enable them otherwise, as there is a possibility that the version of firmware in your console might then cause odd things to happen, most noticeably [I]flashing of the gear indicator LEDs when trim is adjusted.

(my emphasis).

Regards

Pete

Matt Olieman

07-25-2008, 10:05 AM

Thanks for your response to this issue Peter. I was hoping that would of been the problem, unfortunately, the box is not checked so there for I still have flashing gear lights.

I'm using PFC FSX Driver 4.30

and FSUIPC Version 4.30

Matt Olieman

Peter Dowson

07-25-2008, 12:26 PM

Thanks for your response to this issue Peter. I was hoping that would of been the problem, unfortunately, the box is not checked so there for I still have flashing gear lights.

Hmm. Strange. How old is the firmware? I wonder if there are some other new commands they added which messed up old firmware decoding. Did they always do this, since you had it, or only, for example, with more recent PFC DLL updates?

You should be able to get PFC to supply a replacement firmware chip, if that is what it is. Otherwise, If I knew what caused it I could make that part optional too.

Contact PFC. They should be able to tell you how to find out your firmware version.

Regards

Pete

W9XE/Project777

07-25-2008, 12:32 PM

:DMatt

I own the Jetliner yoke, pedals and the 737 throttle quad. I really like their products. Their email support could be better. I have asked how to like 2 Jetline yokes but never a reply. Posted it in there forum as well. At one time I was sure they had said they were going to sell a linked system. It just cant be that hard...

Drivers for their products work well in FS9 and FSX.

I sure would like to see them be a sponsor at Mycockpit. :D :D :D

Matt Olieman

07-25-2008, 01:29 PM

Hmm. Strange. How old is the firmware? I wonder if there are some other new commands they added which messed up old firmware decoding. Did they always do this, since you had it, or only, for example, with more recent PFC DLL updates?

Regards

Pete

Thanks again Pete for your response. The unit is about 5 years old. Works fantastic with FS9 and of course PFCDLL FS2004.

I'll take your advise and contact them and find out if it is a firmware issue.

Thanks again,
Matt Olieman

Peter Dowson

07-25-2008, 01:58 PM

Thanks again Pete for your response. The unit is about 5 years old. Works fantastic with FS9 and of course PFCDLL FS2004.

Hold on there! You mean you don't get the gear LEDs flashing in FS2004? What version of PFC.DLL are you using? If it is 2.30, then that will have all the same stuff in as the 4.30 you are using with FSX. So that would certainly present us (me more than PFC I expect) with a puzzle.

There should be no differences between FS2004 and FSX causing such a change. Let me know about versions, please. Better include the FSUIPC versions in each case too.

Regards

Pete

Matt Olieman

07-25-2008, 02:29 PM

Hold on there! You mean you don't get the gear LEDs flashing in FS2004? What version of PFC.DLL are you using? Regards

Pete

Hi Pete, OK promise you won't beat-up on me to bad if I'm using an old version :)

FS9: PFC Driver 1.9, FSUIPC 3.50 (and it works perfect).

Regards,
Matt O.

Peter Dowson

07-25-2008, 03:11 PM

Hi Pete, OK promise you won't beat-up on me to bad if I'm using an old version :)

I don't talk to people using old versions. ;-) (Honest, they are a real pain for developers, because it means things go undiscovered for too long. There's realy no way of supporting old code, and when things go wrong later, when folks HAVE to upgrade, there's no knowing why things go awry. Horrid!

FS9: PFC Driver 1.9, FSUIPC 3.50 (and it works perfect).

You aren't supported at all. Sorry.

I can't really help, because I really cannot trace all the differences between 1.9 and 2.3 so I've no idea what specific bits your old firmware doesn't like. It seems you must either put up with it or get updated firmware.

Of course you could simply give up FSX and stick with FS9. That may be best, eh? ;-) After all, you stuck with FSUIPC 3.50 (!!!) which is many many versions out of date (it was released in August 2005). Why update FS?

Regards

Pete

Matt Olieman

07-25-2008, 03:31 PM

Of course you could simply give up FSX and stick with FS9. That may be best, eh? ;-) After all, you stuck with FSUIPC 3.50 (!!!) which is many many versions out of date (it was released in August 2005). Why update FS?

Regards

Pete

Actually I do fly it most of the time with FS9 and that PC is only used for the PFC Console. Although occasionally I fly it using FSX and just ignore the flashing gear lights :)

BUT, you've got me curious, so I will probably install the latest greatest updates and see what happens. If I start seeing flashing lights, I'll revert :(

Thanks again for your help Pete :)

Matt Olieman

Matt Olieman

07-25-2008, 04:17 PM

Pete,

I had to try... curiosity got the best of me :)

PFC DLL 2.3 and FSUIPC 3.82 and got flashing lights :) So I think it confirms your thoughts regarding it being a firmware issue. Thank you Pete :)

Now... is it worth the effort to try to get an firmware upgrade or just enjoy the occasional distracting flashing lights? ;)

Regards,
Matt Olieman

Matt Olieman

07-26-2008, 10:24 AM

After my last post I decided to see about getting a firmware upgrade. So, yesterday I wrote to PFC Tech support explained my problem and most likely being a firmware/software mismatch issue.

I'll keep you up to date what transpires :) If I get an upgrade or not, I'm still happy with the product, PFC makes excellent and quality products.

Matt Olieman

Matt Olieman

07-26-2008, 10:28 AM

We've got well over 1200 different people coming onto the site each day, please sign in and vote on this poll.

Thanks,
Matt Olieman

Matt Olieman

07-30-2008, 12:33 PM

Peter Dowson

07-30-2008, 01:15 PM

Just quick note and update.... Got e-mail form PFC Tech Support. I can get a firmware upgrade by replacing the chip for $100 plus shipping.

Let's see..... $100 or flashing landing lights..... hhhhmmmm... well, have to think about this a minute or two. LOL Most likely get the chip :)

Seems a lot. If you don't mind waiting a while I'll see if I can get them to tell me what actions I need to make optional to stop the flashing. Of course they probably can't tell. They farm out the firmware programming, so it depends on whether the chap who does it keeps up with the stuff I've been doing.

Regards

Pete

Matt Olieman

07-30-2008, 01:29 PM

If you don't mind waiting a while I'll see if I can get them to tell me what actions I need to make optional to stop the flashing.
Pete

On that note :D:D:D Waiting doesn't cost a cent :D:D:D I'll wait.

Thanks Pete, VERY much appreciated :)

Matt Olieman

Matt Olieman

08-29-2008, 06:18 AM

Hi Pete, anymore thoughts on this, a possible solution rather then buying the chip? :)

Matt Olieman

Peter Dowson

08-29-2008, 12:49 PM

Hi Pete, anymore thoughts on this, a possible solution rather then buying the chip? :)

Matt Olieman

Sorry, as yet I've got no information on what is causing the problem, so I can't really make any changes to fix it. Eric at PFC said he would go through the schematics and firmware coding to try to work it out, but he is very busy and I don't hold out much hope -- after all they (PFC) solved the problems by fixing the firmware. I can understand their view on this -- in a way it's a bit like me being asked to fix some bug in version 1 of FSUIPC. I'd say something rude and tell the requester to go buy version 3! ;-)

I'll remind Eric anyway, in case he finds time and is still willing.

Regards

Pete

Matt Olieman

08-29-2008, 12:52 PM

Being rude is OK, occasionally :) :) At least you know where you stand :roll:

Thanks Pete, much appreciated :)

Matt Olieman

Padraig

08-29-2008, 02:25 PM

Just quick note and update.... Got e-mail form PFC Tech Support. I can get a firmware upgrade by replacing the chip for $100 plus shipping.

Let's see..... $100 or flashing landing lights..... hhhhmmmm... well, have to think about this a minute or two. LOL Most likely get the chip :)

Matt Olieman

$100 for a chip with new firmware seems seriously overcharged especially when its a bug. What type of microchip is it ? most chips I use are from Microchip and they cost about 7 sterling or less or a little more. If you could find out what the chip is and then ask them for the hex file I could obtain the chip and flash it for you if my programmer supports the chip.

Matt Olieman

08-29-2008, 03:15 PM

Thanks, I'll just wait to see what Pete comes up with. If he doesn't, then I'll just have to continue to enjoy watching those annoying red and green lights :) :) :)

Matt Olieman

Peter Dowson

08-29-2008, 03:21 PM

$100 for a chip with new firmware seems seriously overcharged especially when its a bug.

It does seem expensive, and in fact it sounds like a "nominal price" to scare folks off, but I don't think you could call the problem a "bug". The version of the firmware with the problem pre-dates anything I know -- I think it comes from well before I got involved, so that's sort of FS98 / FS2000 days. And it works fine with the software it was intended to work with.

What has happened is that FS has developed, new facilities have been added, and the firmware enhanced to utilise these. The commands to drive the new facilities weren't even dreamt of when the many-years old firmware was written, so it is understandable that it gets upset when it receives them.

If I knew which commands were doing it I could add an option to stop sending them (presumably losing something which doesn't apply to this hardware configuration in any case), but I can't do that because i have no way of telling what it is I shouldn't send.

If you could find out what the chip is and then ask them for the hex file I could obtain the chip and flash it for you if my programmer supports the chip.

That's what i used to do for the fax machines I used to support in my office software, but I don't have any EPROM programmers now.

Regards

Pete

Padraig

08-29-2008, 03:31 PM

It does seem expensive, and in fact it sounds like a "nominal price" to scare folks off, but I don't think you could call the problem a "bug". The version of the firmware with the problem pre-dates anything I know -- I think it comes from well before I got involved, so that's sort of FS98 / FS2000 days. And it works fine with the software it was intended to work with.

What has happened is that FS has developed, new facilities have been added, and the firmware enhanced to utilise these. The commands to drive the new facilities weren't even dreamt of when the many-years old firmware was written, so it is understandable that it gets upset when it receives them.

If I knew which commands were doing it I could add an option to stop sending them (presumably losing something which doesn't apply to this hardware configuration in any case), but I can't do that because i have no way of telling what it is I shouldn't send.

That's what i used to do for the fax machines I used to support in my office software, but I don't have any EPROM programmers now.

Regards

Pete

Oh I see, I didn't think that it was such early versions of flight simulator I thought it was for FS2004 / FSX. I did not read the thread fully, I just had a glimpse on what Matt was saying here on this page.

Either way, the offer is still there Matt if you make up your mind.

Peter Dowson

10-07-2008, 02:36 PM

Thanks, I'll just wait to see what Pete comes up with. If he doesn't, then I'll just have to continue to enjoy watching those annoying red and green lights

Hi Matt,

Eric at PFC got back to me this morning with some information. I've made some changes to the PFC driver accordingly. Given what he's told me, if you definitely have the "motors" option off, you shouldn't get any Gear LED flashing if you use the latest PFC drivers -- the ones I've just uploaded to my Support Forum - 2.306 for FS9 and before or 4.316 for FSX and ESP.

Let me know, please.

Regards

Pete

Matt Olieman

10-07-2008, 04:43 PM

Hi Pete,

I appreciate your attempt, unfortunately the gear lights still flash in FS9 and FSX. :(

Regards,
Matt Olieman

Peter Dowson

10-07-2008, 07:13 PM

I appreciate your attempt, unfortunately the gear lights still flash in FS9 and FSX.

ah, shame.

In that case I think you should be pleased you didn't pay $100 for a firmware update, because according to Eric the only fix they made was to discard the very commands which my new PFC versions no longer send (when the motors option is off).

This suggests that, in fact, it is the hardware at fault rather than the firmware. Unless of course Eric is mistaken in his analysis of the code, which seems a little unlikely.

However, it is then all the more odd that, as I think you said, it was okay with an older version of the PFC driver. Is that not so? So, maybe Eric is mistaken after all ... I simply don't know.

Do the gear LEDs flash at any particular time? Or randomly, or all the time? Perhaps you could do some logging -- all COM port send & receive data -- but only for a short time, and only around a period when you know you will see the LEDs flash.

In fact if you do this with the latest PFC.DLL and with the old one you say doesn't flash, then maybe i can deduce the problem by comparing the logs.

Regards

Pete

Matt Olieman

10-09-2008, 07:22 AM

Peter Dowson resolved the flashing light problem.

Thank you Pete, you're so much appreciated :) :) :)

Pete, will announce the updates at his Support Forum later today, please check there:

http://forums.simflight.com/viewforum.php?f=54

Thank you again Pete for the "NO FLASHING" Lights :) :) :)

Matt Olieman

rookie

04-07-2009, 04:57 AM

I was wondering older PFC yokes could work with FSX? I believe is it is serial only not usb.

Matt Olieman

04-07-2009, 06:13 AM

I was wondering older PFC yokes could work with FSX? I believe is it is serial only not usb.

How old are you talking about?

Matt Olieman

rookie

04-07-2009, 01:13 PM

How old are you talking about?

Matt Olieman

Matt,
I am not sure maybe you can tell me I don't know much about the PFC, expect that it has to be better then CH Prod. Here is a pic of the yoke. I contacted PFC they said it would only work with ELITE. I am hoping that is not true.
http://i3.ebayimg.com/05/i/001/3e/61/988e_1.JPG

Peter Dowson

04-07-2009, 02:02 PM

Here is a pic of the yoke. I contacted PFC they said it would only work with ELITE. I am hoping that is not true.
As far as I understand the history, all of the very early models were made with Elite protocol and supplied for use only with Elite software. At that time even the consoles sold by Elite and labelled as Elite were manufactured by PFC and badged.

By the time I started working on PFC software, some eight or nine years ago, PFC had developed their own protocol and their newer models included a switch which selected Elite or PFC. Nowadays (for several years in fact) they are all PFC protocol only, and they are gradually replacing some of their catalogue, and adding to it, with fully-implemented USB models. So I think the one in your picture is some 4 generations out of date, at least, and probably at least 10 years old.

My current PFC software, the Flight Sim drivers for PFC serial port equipment, only works with the PFC protocol. The Elite protocol is proprietary and private to Elite, so there is no way I could support it.

With some models I think PFC can, for a price, convert the internals to work with PFC protocol, but there's a good chance that some of the earlier models are not even adaptable. Only PFC can really advise on this, and if they've already said it isn't possible then ... it isn't possible. Sorry.

Regards

Pete

Matt Olieman

04-07-2009, 03:33 PM

Another option is to use your own interface (of the shelf). You may have to change the Pots.

Matt Olieman

rookie

04-08-2009, 03:28 AM

Matt and Pete

Thanks for all the great info and opinions. It is great to have experts to help.
Pete your explaination was so much better then "IT won't work".

Thanks again.

ak49er

04-08-2009, 02:00 PM

Hopefully not a hijack but I thought I would update my progress on my serial PFC Cirrus II console. After a few nights in the lab I have resurrected this console. It was delivered damaged and try as I might I could not get it to operate properly within the PFC.DLL, in FS9 using XP SP3. Some axis would show, but were jittery, and a single button press would send it all awry.

PFC had mimimal interest in reapiring the unit, so the use of a BUO386X came to mind. After a few false starts, I have every switch and all but one axis wired into the BUO386X card. The card had just enough axis slots to accept X/Y for the yoke, and six more for the levers, 2xprop, 2x mixture, 2x throttle.

I figure if I want to add more switches I'll get another card, but to take the one axis, I beleive Go Flight has a single pot card.

Some of the rocker switches had enough poles to sense an on and off signal, others were only an "on" signal. This works with FS9 + FSUIPC as you can assign a "Command sent when button released" siganl. For Xplane, I cannot find this option, so have set those signals to translate as "toggles."

The common denominator was everything shared a ground, with diodes seperating the poles on the switches, and the grounded poles were opposite of what one would normally choose. In hindsight I think using an older BOU386 card vs. the "X" would have reduced the amount of rewiring I had to do, as it is a "Matrix" type card.

At the same time I have also been bringing a Simkits TRC 172 Guage set, mounted in a TRC 172 Panel back to life.

So far I can get it to work with FS9, satisfactorily but still need to do some mecahnical repairs.

I have also found a Plug In for Xplane and TRC Guages, used in conjunction with the XPlane SDK and the SimKits SDK.

On Monday I could barely spell SDK, but now I am knuckle deep in it.

Sorry, no pictures as I left my camera at work, and will be withou it for a week.