Change viewing position?

[superconnie]

I'm experimenting with the outside visuals at the moment and I found a little problem.
If I use the PC-screen to "play" with the FS, then the runway center (and everyting else) is centered to the left pilots window....

The problem comes when I use a beamer and my real cockpit and when I adjust the picture to the center of the cockpit. That means when I sit on the captains seat, I will see the left side of the runway as center.... So my point of view is wrong and somehow I have to tell the FS to shift the enviornment to the reight side.

How to you set up the position of the pilot relative to the environment?

With the current settings I miss the runway completely when I try to land by just looking out the window.

Christian

[AchillesP]

I'm experimenting with the outside visuals at the moment and I found a little problem.
If I use the PC-screen to "play" with the FS, then the runway center (and everyting else) is centered to the left pilots window....

The problem comes when I use a beamer and my real cockpit and when I adjust the picture to the center of the cockpit. That means when I sit on the captains seat, I will see the left side of the runway as center.... So my point of view is wrong and somehow I have to tell the FS to shift the enviornment to the reight side.

How to you set up the position of the pilot relative to the environment?

With the current settings I miss the runway completely when I try to land by just looking out the window.

Christian

Hi,

Inside aircraft.cfg at last lines you will see x and y values. Play with them. It is the orizontal and vertical eye positions.

[superconnie]

I have seen the settings in aircraft.cfg, they are named "eyepoint" and they consist of three values. One changes the position forward and backwards and the other is for the "altitude" above the runway. But the third value changes nothing... I tried from +500 to -500... no sideways change at all.

Shouldn't the scenery move when I change the value? Maybe it's not that one.

Christian

[fweinrebe]

Looks like the eyepoint settings are only for Virtual Cockpit views. Did you try them in the 2D cockpit or the VC?

[ak49er]

The changes can be seen on both the VC and 2d views. The changes will not take affect until you reload the aircraft and the .cfg has a chance to rewrite itself. Just go to the aircraft screen, choose another aircraft and rechoose the one you want. This may be a pain if you already have a "situation" (outside views on external monitors )saved.

[Mike.Powell]

This may help: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc526984.aspx

In particular, scroll down to the examples section and look at the "C172-Cameras-text" example. you can add a number of additional views at one time for comparisons.

[JBaymore]

Mike,

That's only for FSX.

best,

...............john

[Matt Olieman]

This has been discussed many times. Christian, the short answer is "no."

No matter where you position the pilot in FS, the center of the screen will always be the center of your view. For example, you're at the beginning of the runway (12,000 ft long) for takeoff, nose centered on the line. You position yourself either left or right seat, using the MSFS pilot positioning feature. You look at the screen and runway line goes to the center of the screen.

OK, with the above setting, you are on final, no wind, let's say 5 miles out, you would constantly be making directional corrections to fly a straight line. To avoid that, you would have to keep the runway centered on the screen and to you it would seem as you are crabbing either right or left (depending if you are set for CPT or FO position).

It's unfortunate MS does not understand the need for such settings. It seems to me, it would be simple programing effort, to include, centering the pilot POV either left or right of center screen. That means, all views would include the centering if distant objects from Pilots POV.

Matt Olieman

[JBaymore]

It's unfortunate MS does not understand the need for such settings. It seems to me, it would be simple programing effort, to include, centering the pilot POV either left or right of center screen. That means, all views would include the centering if distant objects from Pilots POV.

Matt,

"Back in the day" when Microsoft was asking for input into the development of fsx I was one of the folks sending suggestions.

Everything that I sent to them that I thought should be included in the (then) upcoming FSX related to adding some features that really catered to the growing home cockpit builder market. This ability to orient the viewpoint was on of them.

Unfortunately... as far as I can tell........ there were NO additions that really were "specific" to pit builders needs. Yes... there are some improvements that we can take advantage of.... but they seem to be because thy are addressing some OTHER market segment.

Hopefully with FS11 they will look at the EXPLOSION in cockpit builders....... and add some of the stuff WE really need.

I can dream, can't I? ;)

best,

...................john

[Matt Olieman]

There you go John :) I'm right there with you :)

Matt Olieman

[superconnie]

Well, that's bad news to me because I have a bit a problem right now. I wonder how you guys solved that problem...
My simulator is working now and I'm practicing flying but I almost never hit the runway. I figured out that the problem has to do with the alignment of the screen and picture. I started shifting everything to the left and to the right but it is quite difficult to find the right place.

How did you adjust your visuals? Just trial and error?

The effect I have at the moment is like this: I do a nice visual approach and the runway is straight in front of me. The closer I get to the runway, the more it slips to the side. When I watch the instant replay, I can see my airplane heading in a totally wrong direction. No wonder that I miss the runway...

Good ideas how to fix this are highly welcome.

Christian

[fweinrebe]

Can you attach the .cfg file of the aircraft in question as well as your fs9.cfg or fsx's .cfg file so that we can see if we find something in there?

[AndyT]

I don't understand this problem. I used to have a single monitor and I guessed I would not have the problem. Now I have a TH2Go and I still do not understand what the problem is. The runway is always right down the center of the middle monitor correct? (assuming you are flying straight) If I have 2 chairs then I should see the runway where it is right? In the center monitor? Now I can understand that I might not see it there until I get lower to the ground, but other than that, what exactly is the problem and why is it a problem?

[fweinrebe]

The effect I have at the moment is like this: I do a nice visual approach and the runway is straight in front of me. The closer I get to the runway, the more it slips to the side. When I watch the instant replay, I can see my airplane heading in a totally wrong direction. No wonder that I miss the runway...
Christian

Either superconnie didn't find the aiming point for the aircraft yet or there is a setting somewhere, where the longitudinal axis of the aircraft is bent or offset with an angle.

Maybe he should make a screenshot and show us which point he is using to aim for the runway and a screenshot of the "I can see my airplane heading in a totally wrong direction.." replay.

[Tomlin]

I don't understand this problem. I used to have a single monitor and I guessed I would not have the problem. Now I have a TH2Go and I still do not understand what the problem is. The runway is always right down the center of the middle monitor correct? (assuming you are flying straight) If I have 2 chairs then I should see the runway where it is right? In the center monitor? Now I can understand that I might not see it there until I get lower to the ground, but other than that, what exactly is the problem and why is it a problem?


Andy,

I have the exact same issue as you stated- No issue at all. Ive never quite understood how some folks have this issue of extreme crabbing and others (like myself) dont. When I first got the projector up and running for my visual system a year ago, I test flew it without changing anything and had no issues landing on the numbers each and every time, but admittedly the Copilot's view was crabbed. So, I took a look at the numbers for the X, Y, Z value and adjusted them to the center and it fixed it, as described by NicD for his sim. Now the crabbing is not too bad for the copilot either.

When I built my new PC and installed FS in there, I forgot to adjust the numbers for the view and flew for an hour or so and remembered that I needed to adjust it, but even then it was like the first time and was no issue really for me in the left seat.

I wonder why it seems to be an issue for some and not for others?

[Matt Olieman]

Read my post... #8 in this thread.

It just can't be fixed, there is NO WAY MSFS allows adjustments for you to have the center line on the center nose of the airplane and the pilot to look at the line to infinity and be centered to your position. AND that's a fact!!!!

The only way around this is, collimating mirror setup.

This is a topic that has been discussed for years.

Matt Olieman

[fweinrebe]

Thanks for the good explanations.

This sorts of reminds me of flying a real night approach with no moon or city lights for a horizon reference. That runway just don't want to stay in the middle. This is probably why this has never bothered me in MSFS.

[AndyT]

Well Matt,
I guess I'll just have to keep flying and landing on the numbers never understanding what the issue is. Not that it really bothers me that much... :D

[Matt Olieman]

For me it's difficult to explain of what you're experiencing, at least for me it is. If you were here and we're sitting at a table and pencil and paper, I can explain it much better :)

Matt Olieman

[N242AM]

For me it's difficult to explain of what you're experiencing, at least for me it is. If you were here and we're sitting at a table and pencil and paper, I can explain it much better :)

Matt Olieman


Maybe these will help. Should take you back a few years Matt.

I cannot get the first Avsim post to show up in a linkable form so just do a search on "Projection´s Parallax Problem" .

Here is another post.

http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=121&topic_id=84228&mesg_id=84228&listing_type=search

[fweinrebe]

Excellent illustrations ! Thanks.



It just can't be fixed, there is NO WAY MSFS allows adjustments for you to have the center line on the center nose of the airplane and the pilot to look at the line to infinity and be centered to your position. AND that's a fact!!!!

Luckily this won't affect my old little Pilatus PC-9M. Hopefully the new releases of FS will fix this in future. In time for my Jet sim planned after the PC9.

[project 727]

Hello Christian
The same FORWARD VIEW problem occurred the first day we flew our 727 cockpit and as Matt states theres NO FIX at the present time.
Its seems to be one of the greatest Limitations of using MSFS for home cockpit building.
What we did and still do is use our 727's center window post as a reference point. During takeoffs, approaches and landings we keep the center of the runway (or the runway centerline) aligned with our center post. Even when we taxi we keep the yellow line centered with our center post. After you have a few successfully takeoffs and landings you will be so thrilled to have your Sim flying that you will very, very, very quickly get used to this and you will fly your Sim just as you fly it with a monitor or just as naturally as you fly your aircraft in the real world. Overcoming this MSFS limitation will become second nature to you.
Your beautifully Connie does not have a center post so you may want to some how put a temporary marker in the middle of your center window perhaps toward the bottom of the window so it may not be quickly seen by others, but You can see it. Try a flight around your airport pattern with this middle window marker as your reference point for the center of the runway and you will quickly understand and master this issue.
While on approach keep the runways center aligned with your window marker no matter how awkward (or crabbed) it may seem at first. You will notice that as your approach progresses and you get very close to the runway, the runways width will increase and things will look more natural and real to you and the crabbing will disappear despite of you keeping the runway center aligned with your window marker.
Remember when Flight Simulator had an option of putting a
RED "V" marker in the middle of the "Forward Out of Window View" as a reference tool for the beginner pilot? That "RED V" was there especially to help the pilot stay on the center of the runway during takeoffs and landings.You would be doing the same TEMPORARILY till you get used to it and that will occur very, very quickly.
Take a look at our youtube videos using this technique and you will see how natural things flow in the cockpit once you understand how to adapt to this limitation. Go to our website at: www.xsn.net/project727 (http://www.xsn.net/project727) and access the videos there or go to the attached links below. Soon I will post a KAI TAK landing video so stay tuned. The TAXI and TAKEOFF videos will demonstrate this issue. Also take a look at the picture I attached below and notice how the center post is aligned with the runway center.
The other option is to move your projected view toward the left or right till the runway center line is aligned with the middle of the PIC seat, but that sort of leaves the Pilot Not Flying with an awkward view. It all depends on what makes you happy.
DIRECT LINKS TO VIDEOS:
1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEyOP_pb3gQ&feature=user (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEyOP_pb3gQ&feature=user)

2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7WNCC1_ReM&feature=channel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7WNCC1_ReM&feature=channel)

3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z59AXQW0bWo&feature=channel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z59AXQW0bWo&feature=channel) TAXI

4. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8621Lfse3nY&feature=channel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8621Lfse3nY&feature=channel) TAKEOFF
Really hope this helps You Grease Them All!!!
Joe Maldonado
PROJECT 727
www.xsn.net/project727 (http://www.xsn.net/project727)

[rhysb]

Project 727 is bang on!! I have been reading this post and waiting until someone was going to raise that! and yes microsoft flightsim is utterly useless in its outside views firstly yes it is designed for a single seat aircraft and its default view "looks up and ahead" too much rather than ever so slightly down as the real aircraft does. Obviously most of you know that I have flown single seat aircraft right up to the boeing widebodies and when you are in an airliner your eyes the majority of the time look just over the top of the MIP due to the scanning position of your head.
In the real world of course the left seat is left of the centreline and the right is to the right. you judge your centre position by the centre of the cockpit and if you are doing it for the first time yes it feels like you are Yawing or "crabbing" as that seems to be the popular word. but once you have flown over and over again this feeling disappears! and it becomes the norm. The only reason why the sensation of crabbing is greater is that most people with 3 projectors go for a wider view across their view instead of making the runway fill most of your view thus the runway in your view is smaller than what the real thing would appear.

And remember guys there are 2 main reasons why your optical channel thinks you are yawing firstly is the simple one the fact that you are looking at a flat image!!!!
Secondly most of you started by using a single pc screen and you are simply not trained both in the eyes and mind that in a large airliner the view that a single pc gives you is nowhere near reality!

The trick is to not line the projector screens up to the left seat or the right seat but leave all the views centered and line it up to the NOSE of the aircraft then simply fly over and over again until that becomes the norm then you are closer to reality that you will ever be!!

The only change I would suggest to the view is to pan it slightly down towards the ground as if you are leaning forward then when you scan from the instruments to the outside view its a smoother more realistic vision.

Hopefully you understand all that guys and happy flying

Rhys B

[AndyT]

Rhys,

That makes more sense than all the rest I've heard so for.