experiences with wideview settings? [Archive]

stabell

11-15-2008, 09:08 PM

Hi, there!
The "master" PC is running FSX and LevelD, and soon everything else.
The client is running three 24'' screens on a Th2G, which is my outside view. (which means it is just the default cessna, or rather the defaul Boeing with no textures, panel, etc.)
Both computers are connected to a router, and perhaps it is better to have them directly connected with a seperate pairs of network cards, I don't know.
I wondered if anyone has experimented with the settings in Wideview,
Buffers, Priority, Update Rate..?
Because it seems like even if the "master" computer is showing 40 FPS at all times, and the client 50, it is not smooth..

ian@737ng.co.uk

11-16-2008, 04:39 AM

i am using wideview on two client computers, both display two views. client 1 capt f/left and left and client 2 f/o f/right and right with no issues at all using default settings.
i'm thinking that your fps returns are good, so two thing come to mind. achieving a high fps setting is using system resources. i have my fps locked at 24 on all machines. your eye can't see any improvement over this. so give some resources back to the systems..... your machines are wasting 'computing power' drawing these extra frames that you can't notice.
second thing i thought of is with you being able to achieve such high frame rates means that your machines are 'drawing' the frames, so i suspect that the delay is caused on your network. might be worth checking over your network.
XP or Vista?
all my machines are running XP so i'm using the IPX protocol.
good luck and hope you get it sorted.
regards from wales...... ian

AndyT

11-16-2008, 05:24 AM

I agree with the above.
Lock your frame rates on all machines to 25. That's more than enough frames to give you smooth fluid motion and will return all the other computing power to the machines.

stabell

11-16-2008, 07:34 AM

Thank you, folks, I can try to lock it on 30 FPS, so that the vertical sync can make the view a little smoother.
And I couldn't get the IPX to work, that's why I stick with TCPIP.
But I will re-read the manual and retry the IPX.

LUFTY

11-16-2008, 07:43 AM

Hi Stabell

Are you using version 2.2 of wideview which has built in smoothing for slower servers ?

This might help if you have latency on your network or problems at the server end.

Give it a go and let us know how you get on.

Regards

Lufty

MartinK

11-16-2008, 07:51 AM

Hi,

Why waste another 10 fps to system resources where you wouldn't gain a whole lot? I've got my dual core, 2.5 Ghz, 3 Mb Intel Vista machine fixed at 20fps running FS9 and PMDG 747 with TH2G and 3 outside views smooth as silk.
It's driven by the WidevieW Server on another Vista machine set for poor visuals since it's only the 'flying machine'.

If you are running Vista then forget about switching to IPX since that's not supported by Vista at all. I'm using TCP with all the default settings and it's running perfect.

Hope this helps.

Kind regards,

Martin

stabell

11-16-2008, 12:01 PM

I'll try the 2.2 version and see how it goes.
The IPX protocol is not working, for some reason (XP), si I will have to investigate furhter, or stay with TCPIP.
Thank you all for answers!

ian@737ng.co.uk

11-16-2008, 01:34 PM

good afternoon captain......
just check your network connections (on both machines) in control panel and look if the IPX protocol is bound to the adaptor you are using to connect the two machines. look in properties and make sure there is an entry for the IPX protocol and the checkbox is ticked.
if both adaptors have IPX protocol installed, can't see why it shouldn't work.
again, good luck.
regards from wales.... ian

stabell

11-16-2008, 01:48 PM

I have only one network card in each PC, and there is both TCPIP and
"NWLink IPX/SPX/NetBios compatible..." ticked on each card.
However, both PC's are connected to a router, maybe I should have a dedicated network card and cable for the IPX-stuff.
Do you have your computers connected to a swithc, perhaps?

stabell

11-17-2008, 07:37 PM

I have now connected the two computers together through a network switch, using TCPIP (because I cannot get IPX to work) just to be sure that the problem is not internet traffic using the bandwith, etc.
It stutters like a nightmare, and I think I have tried every possible WideView settings, I have locked both computers to 31 FPS, both computers run smooth as silk, separately.. But with wideview, it is not good at all.
The client is hovering a couple of meters in the air, so the landing gear problem shuld be solved.
Whn connected, the client seems to be running smooth for a second, then a little pause of about 1/10th of a second, and then it is "huurying up" to catch up. So there is a terrible stutter every second or so.
So if you have Wideview, and the client(s) are smooth as silk, and haven't changed any setting, or done something odd/smart with your network, I guess you can not help me;)
But if you hvae encountered stutters, and found a sollution, please tell me.
(the new version with the smooting function didn't have any impact on the problem)

XP and FSX.

MartinK

11-18-2008, 07:53 AM

Hi Stabell,

If both your machines are running smoothly by themselves then you may suspect a networking issue.
Check your network switch for any (TCP) traffic with WidevieW switched off. If any one of the LEDs on the box is blinking in a rapid fashion something is generating havy network traffic but WidevieW is not causing it.
If there is traffic going on and you then switch the WidevieW server side to on you should see havy blinking (almost solid on) on the LEDs.
What brand or model switch are you using?

If there is already (havy) traffic going through the switch without WidevieW being active you may suspect some spy software or something else.
It that case I would suggest you have your PC checked by some spyeraser program first.

Again, with WidevieW off, both PCs connected to the switch and no other applications running on either PC there should be little or no traffic going on on your network. If there is however then WidevieW could be suffering from that. Although the WidevieW manual says WidevieW would benefit from running over the IPX protocol I am running it over TCP on the same switch that is also connected to my ADSL router and I am having no problems at all.

IPX on XP should be working ok. If you can't get it work I would suggest to delete the IPX protocol from the adapter and the reinstall it.

Hope this helps.

Kind regards,

Martin

ian@737ng.co.uk

11-18-2008, 11:15 AM

hi stabell.........
martin is right. from your earlier descriptions of your issue, my opinion is that both machines are running well because of the fps returns when they are 'standalone'. another clue pointing to the network is that you say it stutters and then tries to hurry to catch up. this suggests that there is congestion on the connection because simply put what wideview does is update position/altitude and pitch/roll information from the server to the client in real time.
i have to agree with martin that there is something eating up the network capacity and then your wideview packets are having to wait their turn to be sent, hence the stuttering.
i know it can be a real b**lache when you have an issue like this, but we are all here to help if we can.
good luck and i also agree to try to re-install the IPX protocol if you can.
have a great evening and hope you get it working......
ciao ... ian

stabell

11-19-2008, 02:13 PM

Hi, network/homepilot-guys!
I have investigated the matter further, and maybe this may be caused by something else..
Let me think this through:
WideView is a slew based system.
I notice that if I am standing still at a runway (no wideview started) and press "y" (starting slew mode), the plane will go like mad somewhere, due to a not-perfectly-nullzoned joystick. So if I use the joystick to slew back to the airport, so to speak, the plane can then stand still in slew mode - the joystick is now perfectly nullzone'd.
Then I press "y", and the plane will sink some inches down on the gear, and rest.
So I press "y" again, and the plane goes off like a rocket again!

This results in the following interresting observation:
I start both the server and the client, taxiing slowly forward.
Stuttering motion once a second on the vclient.
Then I press "y" on the client.
For a split second the client is off to the moon, but it reaches only some feet away before WideView TURNS SLEW BACK ON.
Now the interresting bit: Wideview now works smoothly! For about two seconds;)
When in slew, without WideView started,
if I get the plane to stand still, by pressing NUM5 (reset), it is possible to get the plane to move slowly to the side by pressing the arrow keys once.
This means that with WideView running, I can see that the smoothness can be better, or much worse by pressing these arrows...
It is like there is a permanent slew setting that is not centered, it is not directly "connected" to the normal joystick setting?

On the client I have no joystiock, so there is nothing to "center" there.
But the server is probably the problem, it doesn't seem to help just to calibrate the joystick, because "slew" has an own calibration somewhere..

Just thinking loud here.
Maybe you pro's have the key to this puzzle;)

AndyT

11-19-2008, 10:33 PM

Ummm.... dont use slew?

stabell

11-20-2008, 05:47 AM

Well, WideView IS using slew to work;)

XOrionFE

11-20-2008, 08:18 AM

On the network side there is no reason that I can think of for anyone to run IPX anymore. IP is far more efficient as IPX is a broadcast protocol and very chatty.

That said, I cannot see how anyone could have issues with either in a peer to peer enviroment with the type of stuff we push through our systems. Especially using 100mb cards and certainly shouldnt have a problem if you have gigabyte cards. I have seen SQL servers on some of my customer networks that are getting pounded by thousands of transactions from users that rarely go above 20-30% utilization when using gigabyte card on a good switch.

What I have seen is many times there is a speed/duplex mismatch between a network card (NIC) and the switch it is attached to. If you have two computers connected directly I suggest you go into your NIC configuration and set both to use max matchable speed (ie- 100 mb or 1 gig) and also set the duplex to full (note that many gigabyte nics may not allow you to set duplex to full because they only work at full duplex). The main point is to make sure you are getting the max potential out of the card. If for some reason you are in Auto mode and getting Half Duplex then that is a real killer.

It also helps if able to use a managable swtich between clients becuase it will allow you to also select speed and duplex of a port. You can also see if there are collisions or crc errors occurring on a port in most managable switches which will help you identify if there is a problem.

Again, I think it highly unlikely for anyone using gigabyte for sure to be overwhelming the capacity in our enviroments.

Finally, this may have been said but ensure you do not have Windows firewall enabled and blocking traffic between your pcs.

Hope this helps

MartinK

11-20-2008, 11:56 AM

Hi St

I had to read your latest msg a few times before I really understood what is happening but here are some of my thougths:

- I am assuming it is not a networking issue and you have checked for any
other havy network traffice with WidevieW off.
- Next, in your latest msg you are mentioning the following:
I notice that if I am standing still at a runway (no wideview started)
and press "y" (starting slew mode), the plane will go like mad somewhere,
due to a not-perfectly-nullzoned joystick. So if I use the joystick to slew
back to the airport, so to speak, the plane can then stand still in slew
mode - the joystick is now perfectly nullzone'd.

My questions here are:
1) is this done on your server or your client? If it is on your server, then
why are you doing so? There is no need to press 'Y' on neither the client
or the server; WidevieW will handle that for you (on the client) where
and when applicable.
2) how can you nullzone a joystick by using the stick to slew your aircraft
back to where you want it?
If you are using a joystick I would suggest you calibrate it first in the
correct way such that when you put your plane on the runway and
you switch the joystick on it doesn't take off in all unwanted directions.
3) have you made any changes to any of the .cfg files, like eg. fs9.cfg
panel.cfg or aircraft.cfg and if so, what are those changes and why
did you made them?

Again, if you put your plane on the server side on the tarmack regardless whether the joystick is on or off it shouldnot take off by itself under any circumstance.

Also, from my experience the correct way to start a WidevieW client is to start your server side first by putting your plane in the position you want, start WidevieW by using the switch on the WV panel (you can see WV is working through the LEDs on your switch) and no movement should take place up to this point.

Next you start your client side by putting the plane (preferably the same one as on the server) somewhere (not necessarily the same Lat/Lon as is the case on the server) and start WV, again using the on/off swithc on the WV panel. If the client aircraft is in the same position as the one on the server, again nothing should happen until you start playing around with the throtlle on the server side. If however, the client aircraft is in a different (Lat/Lon) position compared to the server one then you should see immediate movement on the client aircraft to catch up on the Lat/Lon (and actually Altitude) position as is being transmitted to it constantly by the server.

If you see any other behaviour then described above some configuration somewhere is seriously meshed up and unless you know where you have made changed over time the only way to get out of this is to re-install WV and/or FS.

Hope this helps.

Kind regards,

Martin

stabell

11-20-2008, 01:59 PM

XOrionFE

11-20-2008, 02:20 PM

Hi there, captain!
The reason for doing this test, was to try to narrow down the problems I have with WV.
I thought that if going to Slew mode means that the plane is not standing still, I thought that this would "compete" with WV's update on position.
And I found that in the Control section, Joystick, there is also a slew department, and there were several settings assigned (by default?),
like moving the mouse puts the plane forward, etc.
But by taking away all these, the plane, both server and client, is standing still in slew mode.

But this did not solve the WV problems, I'm affraid, so now I am onto the network settings again.

So now I am hoping to read something like "before I had stutter problems with WV, but that was solved when I did this...;)

XOrion: I will tke a look at the network settings, that might be the problem.
Sounds like you know a lot about network!
Thank you all for help!

Yes, I have been a network engineer for 17 years and run a large network consulting practice in Northern Illlinois. My specialties are in Network Security and Wide Area connectivety. We are the largest Sonicwall Gold Partner in Chicago as well as in the top 1% of all Microsoft Business Solutions partners Worldwide. I am the partner in charge of Infrastructure Services
-Scott (aka XOrionFE)

stabell

11-20-2008, 05:32 PM

Holy Macaroni, it sounds like you knw something about packets and things!
One question to you then: When I connect two computers directly with a crossover cable, to rule out network weaknesses on my existing network,
do I then tick "receive IP address automatically, and so on?
If a computer is connected to a router, it is given IP address, or I can choose one in its range. But what about direct connection? (XP)?

XOrionFE

11-20-2008, 11:23 PM

Under a direct connection if you do not assign an IP address but leave it set to obtain one automatically from DHCP the computer will lease a special reserved address from a range of addresses Microsoft owns and set aside for this in the 169.x.y.z range. This is by design to allow computers to communicate peer to peer on a network without a DHCP server (DHCP servers are servers that assign IP addresses to hosts on a network).

Problem is that these addresses will not be known to each peer so you have to look at what gets assigned and then use that address to communicate and it can change from boot to boot.

You are better off assigning addresses. You should use an RFC specified "non-routable" address. To make it easy on you let me suggest you manually assign the first computer 192.168.100.1. Assign the second 192.168.100.2, the third 192.168.100.3, and so on.

Make your internet router or firewall 192.168.100.254. Then make the default gateway on your computers 192.168.100.254 to match the router. Make the Network Mask on every host 255.255.255.0.

This will get you running fine. Also if you want to browse for resources (file sharing) between computers you need to ensure you have "Client for Microsoft Networks" running if Windows XP and "File and Printer Sharing" turned on, and share some folders. Make the workgroup name the same on all computers as well or leave as the default "workgroup"

Hope that helps

stabell

11-21-2008, 06:29 AM

Hi again!
You are talking about the router, but if I connect only the two computers together with a crossover cable, which settings are right?
Shall I call the first one 192.168.100.2 and the next one 192.168.100.3 for example? Subnet mask? Gateway?

Efe Cem Elci

11-21-2008, 07:05 AM

For computer 1, specify the IP as 192.168.0.2, subnet mask as 255.255.255.0, Default gateway as 192.168.0.1.
For computer 2, specify the IP as 192.168.0.1, subnet mask as 255.255.255.0, Default gateway as 192.168.0.2.

In more detail:
http://jamus.dannz.net.nz/technology/technology.htm

XOrionFE

11-21-2008, 08:42 AM

You can use the numbering scheme I gave you or the one EFE suggests. If it is just the two computers then you do not need to enter a default gateway as Efe suggest. The default gateway is meant to point to a router as a means of reaching other subnets such as going out to the internet. If you dont have a connection to the internet via a router then the default gateway is meaningless. In any case, the default gateway typically would be set to the same router on all computers (thus the same default gateway for every host on a subnet). It does not need to be set to the other computer's address as Efe suggests. That said, you can do what Efe says as it will not harm anything either.

stabell

11-21-2008, 02:54 PM

I see.
Before I switch to using crossover cable,
I put full duplex, force 100MB's on both cards. (still connected to a router).
It did not help, but there was several other settings there, like "buffer sizes" and "optimize for CPU",
do you think that there might be something there?
It would truly be interresting to know what is actually being sent from the server, and what is actually being received on the client side.
Still stuttering.
I am going to try the crossover thing, then.

MartinK

11-21-2008, 05:09 PM

Hi Stabell,

I think you are about to take off in the wrong direction. IMHO there shouldn't be any need to use cross-over cables. Switches, hub, routers or whatever you use to build your network should be working just fine. I don't think you will find many simmers who are using cross-over cables or even worse changed the settings on their networking protocols. With todays technology there should be no problem whatsoever to cater for the WV traffic.

In your last post you indicated you are looking at all sorts of add'l params on the networking side of things and maybe considering changing them.
If you have not made any changes to these params before, i.e. they are still set to the defaults I would STRONGLY like to suggest: Don't touch them!!!
In particular when you don't know what the effect will be you are about to open a can of worms.

I'd also like to repeat some of my previous questions:

1. If you have your 2 PCs connected to your network while FS and WV are
not running, do you see any network traffic, i.e. blinking LEDs on the
switch?
2. Have you been able to stabelize your aircraft on both the server and the
client side?
3. Have you tried to re-install WV and use the correct sequence to start it
and what happens after that?

I am very curious to read your answers!

Kind regards,

Martin

XOrionFE

11-22-2008, 12:25 AM

I agree with Martin

You shouldnt need to adjust any of those settings. The crossover moreover is only necessary if you want to directly connect two hosts together without a hub or a switch. The only thing I could see slowing you down on the network itself woudl be a duplex mismatch as this would allow for connectivity but be severly impacting performance.

My guess is that your problem lies elsewhere otherwise. Like Martin said, dont start changing the other network card settings.

stabell

11-22-2008, 09:20 AM

Hi!
I will not go into the advanced network settings, I understand now that those are not the problem.
I have the two computers connected to a router, not a switch.
And there is a lot of activity on it, while FSX is running, but WV is not.
FSX is communicating with something all the time.
But when FSX is not running on the computers, it is no activity on the blinking LEDS.
I have un- and reinstalled WideView on both computers.
Both the server and the client seems stabilized, I think.
Starting the server first.

XOrionFE

11-22-2008, 09:23 AM

when you say you are connected to a router you need to clearify what the router is. If these two computers are connected on two different subnets of the router and not configured correctly along with router settings then you will not have any communications. What is the router (brand, model no.) and what interfaces do you have each computer plugged into?

MartinK

11-22-2008, 10:57 AM

Hi Stabell,

Allright! It looks like we are getting somewhere.

So if your router seems pretty busy with just FSX up and running on your PC couple of more question come to mind:

1. Is the router getting very busy when you start FSX or is it already busy
with your PC running FSX switched on?
2. If the answer to the above question is: is starts to be busy when FSX
is started then the next question is: what add-ons did you install to FSX
or what changes did you make to the FSX configuration either manually
or through the various sliders etc.?

Very curious to your answers!

Kind regards,

Martin

stabell

11-22-2008, 12:05 PM

Xorion:
The cable modem (internet signal)is going in to a router, Linksys BEFSR41.., and the two computers are connected to port 1 and 2 on the router.
Both computers have fixed IP, and the gateway is the routers IP.
Internet goes to both computers, of course.

Martin: If I take away the internet signal coming from the cable modem, and no FSX running, the LEDs doesn't blink.
But when I start FSX, WV disabled, it is blinking.
I have no weather program started, or any multiplayer that I know of.
Maybe FSX is using a lot of bandwith on the network, making WV slower than normal?

MartinK

11-22-2008, 06:34 PM

Hi Stable,

Well, it looks like we are really nainling this down.

Now, the problem is that I am still on FS9 and not familiar with FSX an any of its possible settings that may cause network/internet traffic.
From what you are writing in your last response I take it that as soon as you start FSX there is some serious traffic going on towards the Internet.
The only reason I can think of is that some add-on is trying to connect somewhere but unfortunately I have no clue which one when you say you don't have additional stuff installed.

The only thing I can think of is to re-install FSX but that looks a bit drastic and sound like an overkill....
Anybody else any ideas here???

Thanks,

Martin

stabell

11-22-2008, 07:06 PM

on my router, there is no way of telling wheater it is a little or serious traffic, just by looking at the LED's. they are not blinking faster as the traffic ncreases, so to speak.
But if you have a firewall installed, you will see that it will react the first time you start FSX: "do you allow FSX to access internet..".
I don't know what FSX want internet access for, I have unticked real weather.
A network analyzer is a good thing; you can find out which program is using bandwith, an so on.
But in this case, WideView is a module inside FSX, and will probably be difficult to analyse.

Tahnk you all for help, so far.

stabell

11-23-2008, 07:23 AM

I have to correct earlier observations: When I stop WideView on the server side, traffic through the router is stopping (LED's not blinking anymore). So no unwanted network traffic is going on, probably.

MartinK

11-23-2008, 07:47 AM

Hi Stabell,

Ok! Your latest observation is exactly the way we want it to be.
No (or very little) network traffic with just FSX running and serious blinking
LEDs with WV switched on because WV server is constantly updating its
client(s) with data (Lat/Lon, Altitude).

So, now that the situation seems to have stabelized what happens if you start things up in the correct order:

1) FSX on your server PC,
2) WV on the server PC (using the switch on the WV panel; LEDs should start blinking),
3) FSX in the client PC (choose an aircraft and position it somewhere),
4) WV on the client (again using the switch on the WV panel)?

Does this make the aircraft on the client head for the moon again or is it staying in the position where you put it initially?
If it's stablized then just move the throttles forward on the Server PC and see what happens....

Let us know!!!

Kind regards,

Martin

stabell

11-23-2008, 12:52 PM

Hi!
Checklist done, and still it is not smooth.
Question for you, maybe you have time to try this:
Server running WV, plane on ground, standing still,client running WV.
Then on the client, stop WV. It is still in slew.
What hapens when you press "y" to come out of slew mode?
On my system, the client will then have a speed of, like 100 knots forward, running down the runway, as if it in slew has a high speed, but is held back in'
place by WV position updates, perhaps making it stutter.
I was thinking that the normal thing should be that the plane should fall DOWN some feet, because of it hovering a couple of feet above the runway in slew mode?
Anyway, it is still not smooth at all.
I have presently buffers 100 rate 5, higher priority.

MartinK

11-28-2008, 05:59 AM

Hi Stabell,

Sorry for not being able to get back to you earlier. I have been on the road for the last few days and will be next week as well. I will try and see if I can recreate the situation you described but probably will not be able to do so until the week after next.

Anyway, if you switch the WV client off (through the switch on the WV panel) I wouldn't be surprised if it goes living it's own life. However, if you switch it back on again (with the WV server still running) it should go back to the position where the 'server' plane is located.

As soon as I have been able to test this I will let you know.

Kind regards,

Martin