737 Shell - Once Again

[droddis]

I'm go to try and build a shell like the FDS 737 shell - but i dont have any dimensions. Does anybody or can anybody provide the panel dimensions??

I would buy the FDS shell but i'm currently $1999CDN to short. and thats not including postage.

I've drawn a picture of the shell with the panels labelled. if anybody can provide the measurements could you please either draw them on or write them down eg.

panel A - 100 x 100 x 100 x 100
panel B - 100 x 100 x 100 etc.

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll251/droddis/cockpit-dims.jpg

Thanks
David

[Gsey]

If you have a look in the download section you should find some shell dimmensions there. There was a thread recently that was asking for glareshield dimmensions which had a link to a very good site with 737 measurements, so using the search function should yield good results too.

Its in no-ones best interest to give you the dimmensions of the FDS shell so I think you will have to look at the other options.

Gary

[droddis]

i'm nearly there with my own designl but i just keep finding it hard with the windows. Was worth a shot.

Heres where i'm upto:

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll251/droddis/shell.jpg

[Jackpilot]

Having the dimensions is one thing
Turning all these panels into a sturdy structure able to withstand the weight of components without wobbling is another matter.
And more important, beyond the apparent simplicity of the design, I suspect that there was a lot a research in CAD or else to make it work. All panels are dependant on each other and a few millimeter off on anyone will mean that all adjacent panels have to be reshaped; and finding the faulty panel (panels) may prove next to impossible.
At the end of the line, after many versions, you might end up at or beyond the same amount of money.
Just my 2 cents.

[orwell84]

Hello,

I've been meaning to reply to you for awhile. I saw the pictures of the shell you started awhile back and it looked like you were off to a good start. Regarding the FDS shell, I think that even if you were able to obtain the measurements it wouldn't help you that much in building a shell of your own. There is a point in building the shell where more measurements won't be of any help. I think this is because there is a lot of information not available in 2 dimensional drawings that you must figure out through trial and error. Available drawings can only get you so far, unless you make your own 3D drawings.

I went through this process and figured out that either I would have to get really good at AutoCAD or dive in and sort things out. I ended up using a CAD program to get as close as I could in 2D and trial and error to figure out the rest. I started building the windshield and glarshield and got them to be the right height and in proportion. I made a lot of kindling wood before I got it right. It was faster than learning 3D CAD and it's going a lot easier now that I've gone that far.

All I can say is keep trying, unless you are really hating it. As for the FDS shell, from what I've seen from similar products, I think it is a good option and competitively priced. If I had the budget, I would consider one, but then I would deprive myself of the enjoyment of building it myself.

Anyway, good luck and if you have any speicific questions about how I got through it, I will do my best to answer them.

[David Withers]

i have run the tape over two fds shells. obviously they have folded edges/flanges so that they can be flat packed and shipped.

i will be butt welding/stitching my sections together but the edges have to be perfect or tig/mig welding is hard....ie absolutley zero gaps.

getting the measurements is the easy bit. making the measuements you have into workable plan is another thing.....because the shells are made the way they are its very hard to transfer accurate dimensions into what you want due to the folds and they can be a bit "wonky" from the shop.

all my dimensions are based on lengths. no angles have been taken.

on the upside....you can make the front and rear bulkheads and the bigger sections and then site fit the rest. that is what i will be doing. it will be spot on.

the secret is.....the guys that buy shells cant use tapes.thats why they dont help the rest of us out. if you have the money to buy a shell you generally have the hands of an accountant. and accountants are tight asses.

stick with me kids.

[orwell84]

Probably also an intellectual property issue. FDS would probably be unhappy about their design floating around on the web. The ingenuity of their design is that it can be flat packed and shipped and put together with very llittle chance of someone screwing it up. They used to have a wooden version. I liked that one better, but the new design is probably much easier to put together.

The basic measurements for doing an angular shell like that are everywhere on the net. A little extrapolation and "site fitting" would give you the rest. Besides linear measurements there are lots and lots of angles. As you said, the measurements are the easy part. Actually building it is another thing.

[Michael Carter]

As they say, "It looks good on paper"

But, a lot of hand fitting may be required. With so many angles the measurements and cuts have to be most precise. If you're off by as little as 2mm in one dimension it screws up two or three more panel fits.

Mine is only a half shell, but there was no way I was going to draw that up and work from plans. I would have spent as much time trying to draw it out and working from plans only to discover things wouldn't go together quite as nice as they did on paper and have to hand fit parts anyway.

[Gsey]

"Probably also an intellectual property issue. FDS would probably be unhappy about their design floating around on the web"

That was exactly my point. Why risk pissing off one of the biggest and best flightsim manufactures when it could turn around and bite you in the butt!

Gary

[Joe Cygan]

"Probably also an intellectual property issue. FDS would probably be unhappy about their design floating around on the web"

That was exactly my point. Why risk pissing off one of the biggest and best flightsim manufactures when it could turn around and bite you in the butt!

Gary

Your kidding right Gary?

[Michael Carter]

Best would be subjective.

[warvet]

LOL Joe,
I was about to say the same thing :) too funny Oh my goodness we wouldn't want to upset the magnificent powers that be or the Flightsim gods on mount FlyOlympus LOL

hahahaha thats hilarious, my opinion share the knowledge so everyone can win and this hobby will grow. Just remember itspeople like Joe, me and many others here that made the great superpower of the flightsim world as you refer what it is today.Power of the builders not the Mfgs:)JMO

Tim

[Michael Carter]

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h146/boeing722/notworthy.gif

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h146/boeing722/notworthy.gif

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h146/boeing722/notworthy.gif

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h146/boeing722/notworthy.gif

[Gsey]

kidding at what Joe? My comment about the company or about being bitten in the butt? As for the comment about the company I would say the exact same thing about Innovative, Engravity, any day of the week.

@ Tim... Your right no doubt about it. But remember also that when the builders demanded more realism FDS delivered. At that time we only had AGT....(no longer in business) CSI, A320 Project (FDS), or real parts ...which for the aircraft we were building were not available. The bar is continually being raised by all companies now and thankfully for us builders we are no longer building with horrible plastic crap and comments like yours below can continue to flow....

Havent been around for a long while thought I'd drop in and all i can say is Peter you truly have continued to outdo yourself, at this pace you will be building sims so real pilot will prefer those over the real thing. Congrats Pete lots of hours and you earn all the praise.

Tim
A340 1/2

Gary

[Michael Carter]

Hmmm. Not this pilot. Even if somehow they were ever to offer 727 equipment, I'd still buy the real parts. They could never match surplus prices with Korry indicator and flight rated switches already installed. I doubt they could match the authenticity of 30 years of use.

They make a very good product. There is no doubt in anyone's mind about that.

[Joe Cygan]

kidding at what Joe? My comment about the company or about being bitten in the butt? As for the comment about the company I would say the exact same thing about Innovative, Engravity, any day of the week.

@ Tim... Your right no doubt about it. But remember also that when the builders demanded more realism FDS delivered. At that time we only had AGT....(no longer in business) CSI, A320 Project (FDS), or real parts ...which for the aircraft we were building were not available. The bar is continually being raised by all companies now and thankfully for us builders we are no longer building with horrible plastic crap and comments like yours below can continue to flow....

Havent been around for a long while thought I'd drop in and all i can say is Peter you truly have continued to outdo yourself, at this pace you will be building sims so real pilot will prefer those over the real thing. Congrats Pete lots of hours and you earn all the praise.

Tim
A340 1/2

Gary

Actually Gary I was talking about trade marking of geometrical shapes, but thanks for the complements. I’m thinking there is a misunderstanding here, I apologize if so.

Joe

[Michael Carter]

Can you trademark a geometrical shape?

[David Withers]

never mind fds ....what about Boeing and airbus?...sometimes i still cant get my head around the fact that the sim companies can make this stuff.

anyway... a lot of us arent gunna buy a shell anyway cause we all too poor. so in the meantime...

mount Olympus...he he..so true.

tims back....?..jeez?

[orwell84]

I always thought you sim builders regarded suppliers of cockpit components with something like reverence or awe. I am relieved to see that this is not the case. As I have mentioned before, I particularly admire Juan Cordon's work....clever bloke, that fellow. And of course Ivar Hestes' cockpit shell, really quite a work of art.

[David Withers]

finally got a day to start the shell.

need a second day to finish it off.

[BHawthorne]

Actually Gary I was talking about trade marking of geometrical shapes, but thanks for the complements. I’m thinking there is a misunderstanding here, I apologize if so.

Joe

It would be patent, not trademark. And because it's the shell design of a real aircraft, I don't believe they'd have much of a leg to stand on. I'm all for competition in simpit products. If someone wants to come out with competing shells, as long as they're not knockoffs, more power to them. It drives prices down when there isn't a monopoly in place for specific items. One should not be afraid to compete in this market. Anything to drive prices down is good for the community.

[David Withers]

competition....

"Anything to drive prices down is good for the community"

the real cost is in the development....but if you have the means to copy parts it costs nothing to churn them out.

well...i know for a fact my shell has cost 300 dollars au for something that is like..2000 cad i also make all 737 knobs. it sickens me to see the prices charged by the bigger shops. we all know that the polyurethane in each knob is like 20 cents. (i must do that exact calc one day)

right now the shell is made in one piece. if i spent a week on it i could fit folds/joins for it to be bolted together and hence flat packed. good thing i was a boilermaker for ten years. supposed i should copy my metal mip aswell when i get around to it.
at the end of the day..if someone has the means to make exact replicas...whats to stop them charging the same as the big boys do?

not fair really.

[Jackpilot]

competition....

the real cost is in the development....but if you have the means to copy parts it costs nothing to churn them out.


at the end of the day..if someone has the means to make exact replicas...whats to stop them charging the same as the big boys do?

.

Hey guys,,,check Copyrights laws on Wikipedia or consult your lawyer!!!

[Goldmember]

I believe that was my thread. Unfortunately the info that is available is not complete. Because the angles in the horizontal plane are unknown, everybody has a hard time to construct the windows.

See attachment, the top line of the windows is in a horizontal plane (red). The front vertical bar is under 45 degrees (green). Given these facts, there's only one way to arrange the windows so it should be possible to calculate the angles with the question marks.

I've tried to post it in a general science newsgroup to see if some math expert could calculate the angles but I've got no answer.

[orwell84]

These angles can be found by downloading the Autocad drawing that's available here I think. If not, it's available on the Opencockpits website. There is a free CAD program that will let you read these measurements. I measured these angles using Turbocad. I compared the angles from that drawing with some screenshots from FSX and they were correct within 2 degrees. In fact converting these screenshots into CAD files showed that this drawing is pretty accurate. I also used these screenshots to design a curved cockpit. I had to make the outside more narrow and shorter to fit in the space I have. (But the inside is still correct). Also comparing them with Markus pilot's measurements they are all really close give or take here or there.

I can list them for you if you would like...just don't have them handy at the moment.

[oal331]

These angles can be found by downloading the Autocad drawing that's available here I think. If not, it's available on the Opencockpits website. There is a free CAD program that will let you read these measurements. I measured these angles using Turbocad. I compared the angles from that drawing with some screenshots from FSX and they were correct within 2 degrees. In fact converting these screenshots into CAD files showed that this drawing is pretty accurate. I also used these screenshots to design a curved cockpit. I had to make the outside more narrow and shorter to fit in the space I have. (But the inside is still correct). Also comparing them with Markus pilot's measurements they are all really close give or take here or there.

I can list them for you if you would like...just don't have them handy at the moment.

Hi,
is it possible, please to send us the link of this autocad file? I found this file : PANELES 737 NG R14.zip at Opencockpits site, but this have only the panels, not the entire cabin's dimensions or angles.

thanks

[BHawthorne]

Hey guys,,,check Copyrights laws on Wikipedia or consult your lawyer!!!

I know enough about copyright and reverse engineering as a manufacturing engineer to know that you can compete in the same market with similar products without having to copy them. Scaring people off if they want to compete in this market is a dumb move. Frankly, if I get my machine shop up and running in the next few years I actually plan on targeting expensive kits to push prices down in the community. If people don't like that, too bad. ;-)

[David Withers]

"I know enough about copyright and reverse engineering as a manufacturing engineer to know that you can compete in the same market with similar products without having to copy them. Scaring people off if they want to compete in this market is a dumb move. Frankly, if I get my machine shop up and running in the next few years I actually plan on targeting expensive kits to push prices down in the community. If people don't like that, too bad"
__________________

exactly what i am doing as we speak....quality at a good price.

stuff that appeals to they category (me included) that arent wealthy.

[Michael Carter]

I like it.

If manufacturers were that concerned about their patents and copyrights, this hobby would have been dead in it's tracks five years ago.

We have manufacturers developing electronics, panels, interfacing solutions, video displays, and all for the home cockpit builder. Tell me this doesn't put a rock it their shoe.

What are they gonna do?

Wouldn't it be great if we were recognized as a buying group by Boeing and Airbus as a "home" or "consumer" version" of what aerospace manufacturers have been building for the last 50 years?

OK, I've been 'not smoking' for too long. I think I need a cigarette.

[Goldmember]

Yes, pls list them. I've downloaded everything I could find about dimensions but never found the angles. The point is that I want to plan my outside view before I build the shell.

[BHawthorne]

I like it.

If manufacturers were that concerned about their patents and copyrights, this hobby would have been dead in it's tracks five years ago.

We have manufacturers developing electronics, panels, interfacing solutions, video displays, and all for the home cockpit builder. Tell me this doesn't put a rock it their shoe.

What are they gonna do?

Wouldn't it be great if we were recognized as a buying group by Boeing and Airbus as a "home" or "consumer" version" of what aerospace manufacturers have been building for the last 50 years?

OK, I've been 'not smoking' for too long. I think I need a cigarette.

You can probably very easily get "licensed" to use reference to commercial aircraft in your kits. I'm sure they'd be happy to take their cut just for using their name. I hear Lockheed-Martin is especially interested in that type of marketing. No idea about the other big names.

[Goldmember]

I'm in contact with a foam/coating supplier to make interior panels like the side and roof lining of the 737. We first make 1 unit by hand and then ask if they can manufacture it in small qty's. Should definately be lower than the $ 3500 we see as the current pricing.

So give me those angles and I can go ahead :-P

[BHawthorne]

I'm in contact with a foam/coating supplier to make interior panels like the side and roof lining of the 737. We first make 1 unit by hand and then ask if they can manufacture it in small qty's. Should definately be lower than the $ 3500 we see as the current pricing.

So give me those angles and I can go ahead :-P

Would be pretty easy to get the angles. Just purchase a royalty free 3D model of the aircraft from someplace like Turbosquid, scale it 1:1, import it into CAD and tare it down to the basics needed.

[dodiano]

Your kidding right Gary?

Yeah I hope too you are kidding Gary...

Regards,

Roberto

[Gsey]

Seeing as this topic is 2 months old I really dont remember how I felt back then. I write on the forum as if Im sitting across from you having a drink so take my opinion in vein.

Gary

[orwell84]

I think these angles are pretty close. Good luck.

Angle of front windscreen with central pillar 62 deg.

Angle of front windscreen to side windscrren 135 deg.

Goldmember, if you are making stuff, do yourself a favor and buy/learn TurboCad. It's way cheaper than Autocad and you can get any angle you want off of a CAD drawing. With Wintopo and TurboCad you can take a photo and turn it into a scaled line drawing. You will be asking for more angles be sure. I'll help you if I can.

[David Withers]

just a quick update picture of finished shell.

better cut windows out this weekend.

[Efe Cem Elci]

Good work. Looks like a cross between a 737 and an F-117 right now :)

[Michael Carter]

Looks great! Are the window frames already built under the skin or will you build those after cutting the openings?

[David Withers]

hi mike,

I will fit the frame the same as the original manufacturers have... left the windows un-cut for strength during construction.

its made from 1.2mm sheet metal and 30mm x 3mm angle for the frame. tacked together with my TIG welder. poor neighbors must hate me now....it was soooo noisy to make.

used 8 off 2400 x 1200 sheets...tried to lift it at a corner...very heavy now.

my new base is made from 40mm square tube with a 18mm chipboard floor. 300 high off the ground.

i have been a bit lazy about cutting the windows. its gunna be boring.

just a case of fitting it out with the parts from my previous sim now.

just added another picture from a slightly diff angle.

[Michael Carter]

Might be better if you built the interior frames for the windows before cutting the holes. Once you've cut them you can't go back if they're off.

[David Withers]

the side middle window strut doesn't have a frame/stiffener..and the two front window pillars and center pillar only have a light stiffener. so its ok from that point of view.

i have a template of the window cut-outs too which make things really easy.

i just hate concentrating on the four inch blade for ages. no room for error cutting out the windows...it would look terrible.

[Michael Carter]

If you haven't already noticed this from interior photos, the side support under #2 window follows that lower window angle all the way back to the bulkhead. I forget what station number it is. But it also serves as the lower track for #2 window when slid open. The track is built into the support.

The angle of the #2 aft frame/#3 fore frame is 90° to the side support as indicated in the PS'ed photo.

The aft #2 frame and fore #3 frame members continue up over the top and form the aft frame support for the #5 window too.

Hope that helps some if you didn't already know all of that.

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h146/boeing722/sim1.jpg

[Crescent]

I like it...different approach from wood. It's going to look great all painted up.

[David Withers]

thanks mike.

i have uploaded a bad pic of the first sim i built out of wood below. took me a few years that one. started it when there were just a handful of builders around the world.

you can see the interior linings i hand made in the picture. it has the DV window track mock up and the side support that goes all the way to the rear bulkhead/circuit breaker panel.

the people who designed this new steel shell did so with pro setups in mind.

i just copied it.

luckily i have had the chance to measure, photograph and make templates from a pro setup. makes things so much easier!!

[Nick1150]

Hey that's great my friend.

Any chance to post few info on that ?

[balaramalan]

Is there anyway that I can get these dimensions?

Many thanks

[K. Sayre]

I purchased the FDS shell and have no regrets...building my own would have been far more expensive in terms of time and materials purchased...and not near the quality!