Quick question for 727 drivers

[orwell84]

I was wondering if the cockpit section of the 727 was longer than that of a 737 to accommodate the flight engineers station. I am considering having an engineers station in my 737, although I know the 737 is not built with one.

Thanks for the help.

[Michael Carter]

No. The nose section back to station 294.50 is identical on the 707, 727, and 737.

[Rodney]

Agree with Michael. Its the interior configuration that is different. A couple of more inches for the FWD Galley in the 737. Take a gander over at project 727 for some good pictures. I didn't see to much on airliners.net. I wished I had that bulkhead in mine. I do plan on adding it later. Don't know If it will be for SO or for lounge chairs.

[orwell84]

I am having trouble determining the length of the cockpit. All the measurements I have seen reference from the bulkhead back, but not sure where this bulkhead is. And measurements vary somewhat. Many people seem to stop building aft of the seats.

Thanks.

[Rodney]

Reference to the bulkhead is where the cockpit door is. 1st link is to a builders pictures that show the 737 area. 2nd link is showing the 727 door pictures 5 & 6. Michael, correct me if I'm wrong. As far as a measurement I can't do.

http://www.flightdecksolutions.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3869
http://project727.xsn.net/

A couple of very talented builders. Emillio Bettech and Joe Maldonado.

[Michael Carter]

There is a post I made referencing the length of the cockpit to the cockpit door bulkhead calculated using the station references aft of the datum plane in inches converted to feet & inches.

I'll have to find it tomorrow and post it. I don't even know where to begin looking here for it.

[Michael Carter]

I found the post, but I only calculated the length to the rear of the #3 window.

I'll have to recalculate for the cockpit bulkhead. I'll get it posted for you tomorrow.

Here is the copied post:

Here is a bit of information I dug out of a Boeing 727 reference guide I have.

Each station on the airframe is measured in inches aft of the datum point.

The the 727's case the datum point is 130" in front of the aircraft. This is how long the flight test probe extended out in front of the aircraft during testing. The tip of this probe is '0' inches.

The very tip of the radome is 130" back and is called station 130.

From the radom tip to the the very aft of the #3 window frame is station 259.5. If you subtract 130 from 259.5 you get 129.5" or 10'-9 1/2". This is how long this part of the cockpit section is. Each of the ribs has a station point aft of the datum plane. This only has to be subtracted from the nose datum point and converted to feet and inches to get a measurement.

This will even tell you the spacing of the ribs under the windows as each has a datum reference.

This information is near worthless without addition data from a plan view with the same station identifiers, and a front view as well, but it is interesting to me.

Incidentally, the entire cockpit section as an assembly as mated to the front half of the fuselage goes to station 348.2, just aft of the left side entry door, or 18'-2 13/64"

[orwell84]

Many thanks

What I see in many 737 builds is the actual shell section ending at the bulkhead. The rest of the cockpit may be included to the door, but it might be square at this point.

I am becoming tempted by the 727. I like the floor plan and openess of the cockpit So far I have been working on the shell, so I haven't commited to anything. I love the concept of an engineers station and an open view from 4 comfortable seats. I can picture it with hideous 70's polyester covered seats.

BTW, I will have access to a 707 flight deck section sometime this spring. It belongs to the aviation tech program at the school where I work. The program doesn't start until September and at this time it is encased in snow and ice. They also have a DC-3 section parked right in front. I am going to go wild with photos and measurements, but unfortunately I am building now and just will rely on measurements from others.

Anyway, thanks for the help.


BTW, here is a pic as to how the things looks now. It looks quite rough. But I build rough, true up the measurements, then build it pretty. I have come a long way since my first desparate pleas for measurements.

And thanks again.

[brynjames]

What puzzles me Orwell from that thumbnail pic, is how did you end up with a *blue* piano? Is it going to be incorporated in your build for those long over-water flights? :)

--
Bryn

[Michael Carter]

Your length of the cockpit from the tip of the radome to the interior of the cockpit bulkhead wall is 13.70833' (13-81/2")

From the front of the main instrument panel just forward of the corner of the #2L window to the aft cockpit bulhead is 8.16666' (8'-2") This measurement could be off by as much as -4" as I don't know if the MIP is mounted to the forward rib location. It's the closest rib I could estimate given the drawing and knowing where the MIP sits in relation to the #2 window.

These measurements were taken from stations 196.5 to 294.5.

[Michael Carter]

I meant to incude this in the previous post, but it's so much later I thought I'd just post again.

If you really want to fly a 727, then go for it. It's a lot of work, and you won't be buying a thing off-the-shelf that looks anywhere near new, but it's all real and can be interfaced. The logic is a problem, but there's not much on this aircraft that was originally computer driven anyway except the flight data computer and instruments. You get that in the DF727 flight model. Everything else was electical switch and timer logic.

Outputs are a problem and you won't get everything to work, but you'll get the relevent stuff working. At least the stuff that the FSsim includes. Most of the action is on the engineer's panel and you won't be looking at that much anyway except for startup and shutdown, and an occasional look during the flight.

You'll also have the satisfaction of knowing you did it yourself. With a lot of help of course, but your wallet will be a lot fatter than a 737 driver's too, to spend money on things like ventilation, communications, lighting, fuzzy dice etc. :D

Price a few aftermarket 737 panels and then look on e-Bay and see what you get for less money for real equipment with everything included as pulled from the aircraft.

[orwell84]

Thank you for your help and measurements. There are a number of reasons I am considering the 727. I really like the open plan and like the idea of being able to see the whole cockpit from the outside. The engineers station is more about having another place for a person to enjoy the sim. I don't care if it has much functionality. Of course, I could build a 737 with a 727 layout, which is my orignal interest in the 727.

My skills and emphashis are more focused to building a highly detailed cockpit, but start with very bare bones avionics and functionality. At first, a keyboard hack is fine for me. I plan to make my own panels. If you are familiar with Juan Cordon's work, this is the route I plan to go. Making itty bitty panels with a dremel and scroll saw are actually fun for me. This is adequate realism for me and it frees me from buying expensive panels and complex avionics. Maybe I would begin with homemade panels and gradually replaced them with real ones. Scrapes and patina from being real old? Perfect.

I know there are a lot of CAD drawings for the panels of the 737. Do these exist for the 727 as well? Any other good 727 resources?

Thanks again

[Michael Carter]

This is about the only reference site for the 727. http://www.boeing-727.com/

It's mostly systems information, but if you don't have any manuals, it's about all there is.

[orwell84]

Many thanks,

I have run across a number of your posts and now better understand some of the appeal of the 727 building....like being able to get original panels relatively cheaply. Also, it seems that many of these cockpits were one offs built to individual requirements which allows some freedom of design. Also I've heard mentioned that a 727 requires a lot more pilot attention since many things were not automated like on the 737.

BTW, I ran across these sites which describe a sort of hybrid someone built. The story of this sim is quite interesting.

http://www.727cockpit.com/index.html
http://wigrey.blogspot.com/

And hey, thanks again. I have enjoyed discussing this. For now I am just going to mull my options over while building the shell. Then I will have decisions to make.

[Michael Carter]

That is one of the nice things about the 727. You can't build a wrong cockpit.

Each customer had their own options.

Sort of like ordering a new car 30 years ago.