total newb question

[djcevera20]

could someone please point me in the dirrection as to how to light a led that is on a momentary switch.. im trying to get it so when i hit my ap engage button a light comes on and stays on letting me know auto pilot is on.

[Buddym]

Hi,

What interfacing solution are you using? In general your hardware output for the LED must be linked in software to the appropriate FSUIPC offset for the desired function, like AP ENGAGE.


BuddyM

[djcevera20]

i am using the desktop aviator rotary encoder and usb to 20 button interface

[Buddym]

I am not well versed with this hardware, but scanning the product pages on the website it looks like these boards do not have outputs. Maybe someone else here has some expertise, but to me it looks like inputs only.

BuddyM

[djcevera20]

buddym thank you for the quick return if that is the case do you know of a way to incorporate some diy outputs

[Buddym]

Well depending on your comfort level and electronics skills there are a couple... The no-hardware method would be a straight connection to output pins on a parallel printer port... BUT, you still have to get software to get the FSUIPC offset data to your hardware. You could write a application in C or VB to read the FSUIPC data and the take action on the parallel port pins accordingly... Jan Axelson's book on parallel ports would be the place to start. Another method would be using a PIC or AVR microcontroller in HID mode to drive some outputs via USB, this will require some small $$ for chips. This is all depending upon skill levels with such things, and how much your time is worth compared to buying something assembled and tested. I love to build things are write code (not an expert at either), so it's ok for me sometimes.....

that being said, I use the Opencockpit mastercard in my sim, but I am very interested in trying out the Bodnar cards.

Buddy

[djcevera20]

i love to build things however im not too familiar with writing code so that would be fun to try....do you know if the oc master card kit comes programed also do you know of somewhere i could get some ideas as to how to do the pic controller method you spoke of? can i use oc master card with desktop products or would they conflict

[Gsey]

If the led is built into the switch which iam assuming it is from your question, then you need to run a seperate power line to your switch. The switch will have its own circuit for the light. This will work great if you physically push the switch to engage then have to push the switch same again to disengage the ap. If your wanting to turn the light off via software by using a different switch to disengage (in the yoke for example) then you probably going to have to go with a interface solution unless your good at electronics.

Edit: http://www.flightsim.com/main/howto/ortek2.htm this will give an idea how you can do it if the led is seprerate from a switch, but DONT ever hook power to a switch if it doesnt have a seperate circuit such as a spst switch. You may fry your board.

Gary

[djcevera20]

from the sonds of it it might be easier for me to switch to oc products as there master card has outputs...hmmmmm guess i wish i did a little better research before i purchased the stuff from desktop aviator...ah well lesson learned....;-)

[Buddym]

well so far the OC products have been pretty good in my opinion. I have 2 mastercards and a USB expansion card, plus 3 displays cards to drive 7-segment displays. I have managed to get my FCU funtional so far, and will be trying to the EFIS and multi-radio panels working next. Kiek and others here are far more experienced with them than I am and they still use them I think. The OC mastercard has no programming on the card itself, but there is software on the pc (free) that you must use to make it work. These are the IOCARDS and SIOC. SIOC has less capabilities, but is easy to implement, one of the first "tests" you do is to make a switch toggle the strobe, and light an LED to indicate that is on. SIOC is very powerful and can be made to do very copmplex things, I am not using SIOC yet, but very soon.

Compared to writing your own code to drive a PIC or AVR module that you build, using OC would be easier.

For PIC info I would google the PIClist and look at some of the PIC examples on youtube and instructables. For AVR stuff look at the avrfreaks website and again at youtube. It is worth mentioning FSBUS too, that system seems to have matured a great deal, I almost went with it when I started.

Overall I would say that going with OC is a better bet than designing a custom solution using AVR/PIC, if for no other reason that so many people are available to help you when you run into problems. Given that some of the buildes using OC have been at this a LONG time, there is little they haven't run into. Looking through the forums here you will see numerous builders such as kiek and brianwilliamson who have accomplished a huge amount using OC, and they are always very helpful.

BuddyM

[djcevera20]

buddy thanks again for the help...last night i ordered the master card and display card with some 7 segments...shipped two day got excited:D..spent a ton of time reading last night about wiring and unfortunatly the oc tutorials were pretty hard to follow as they are done with some vauge phots and the wording is tough...is this any where you would recommend i go to get step by step instructions on wiring toggles, push and leds...thank you for your continued help..

[djcevera20]

ok just spent a while doing some more reading and i believe i have the just of all of my connections....now i need a suggestion and guide as to how to power the master card i have a few old psu at home and was reading something about using an at or atx psu on the oc site but im a little confused as to how to hook it up to the master card. the connector is whats getting me do i need to puchase a special connecto? I appologize to everyone if these questions are getting annoying.

[Buddym]

No problem, I tell ya, the oc stuff is working well for me. The info is out there it just takes some time to sift thru it. I use a small wall-wart power supply for my MC, it has a 1 amp out at +5 volts DC which should be plenty for driving LEDs.

Read the forums on the OC website alot, and pay attention to the posts and questions regarding the "compatiblilty cable" stuff. I went ahead ang got the USB expansion card to get around that issue, I was having the common problem of some pins not working due to parallel port compatiblity issues. They do sell a cable now that is supposed to work, but I thought the USB interface would just be easier too since lot's of PCs come without parallel ports these days.

After some time of getting switches and rotaries to read, LEDs to light, displays to show numbers, etc, I also ending up some of the input/output boards from OC. They plug into the MC using ribbon cables and provide a screw terminal for each group of I/O pins plus the group ground pin. They sure make wiring easier.

Have you looked at the FSUIPC program yet? You'll need it to get you OC stuff working (well, there is an alternative, I just haven't played with it). It is the dll program that exposes the innards of FS so the OC software can read/write to FS. FSUIPC is easy to load and so is the IOCARDS software. Like I said before I haven't played with SIOC yet. There is a program that comes with IOCARDS called controlador too, it let's you test inputs and outputs. if you get the MC connected and the software all installed you should be able to see an input change when you connect it to that input's group ground pin. If you get that working you are only a few steps from seeing a FS control light an LED or read a toggle switch. It's worth mentioning right here that you shouldn't try to drive anything that draws more current than an LED directly from the MC output pins. If you need to light a lamp, activate a relay, or anything else, drive it with a transistor so you don't burn out an output. When you are driving LEDs be sure to use a current limiting resistor in series with the LED, I use 330 ohms on mine.

When I had made it this far, the then next thing I tried was reading a toggle switch to control the AP master switch on FS. To do this you have to configure the IOCARDS software to know where your switch is connected on the OC MC, and what FSUIPC offset you want it to control. The FSUIPC offsets for normal FS9/FSX controls are listed in one of the OC manuals in the OC downloads section, i think it's annex IV.

http://www.opencockpits.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Downloads&d_op=viewdownload&cid=66


As an example, offset 07BC is the FSUIPC target for the the AP master switch. If you wanted to control the pitot heater the offset is 029C. Some offsets are harder to use than other, you will see that soon enough.

You run the iocards config program to define your inputs and outputs, displays, switches, encoders, etc. First define a variable, give it some meaningful name, next the OFFSET from FSUIPC that you want to interface with, and how long it is. If the offset involved a value that may need a formula applied to (like ALT) you can double-click in the FUNCTION area of the variable you are defining and it will show you a list of available funtions. I think you can create your own too..... Next click on the SW-NORMAL tab to define a switch. Again you gibe the switch a meaningful name, the input number (this is the input number on the mastercard you are connecting the switch to), the control states (value on/value off), and the type of switch.

Save the config file with a new name for testing, close the config program. Open the controlador program and test that your MC responds correctly when you operate your switch. If som you hardware connection is good, if not check your wiring. Now find the ini file. I suggest making a copy of the default file (I think it's iocard.dat) and then edit the line that tells the IOCARDS pogram to load when you start it. the line looks like ConfigFile=xxxxxxxxxxxxx. Change the file to point at the new file you created. Save the ini file and start FS, then start IOCARDS. If everything is correct, you will see that when you operate your switch the coreesponding switch in FS operates as well, if not check over your config file.

I hope this helps, I will continue to try and answer where I can. I am sure it wont belong before you pass me by and then I will be asking you questions! I am really just getting started myself, there are so many people out there that know this stuff inside and out! Be sure and question my info when it seems to be wrong, I am sure that I will make mistakes! Hopefully we can learn from each other. I make progress kinda slowly, I have way too many projects going at one time (character flaw!) but that's just me! Also if I am telling you stuff you already know let me know, no since if you already know!

BuddyM

[djcevera20]

dude...buddy awsome reply thank you for taking the time to answer in such detail...i noticed that the oc guys use the 12 pos rotary switches alot i have some encoaders from desktop aviator that have the three terminals and two if i want to incorporate a push button...with the 12 pos switches they have a ground and then they wire the terminals to each other to ultimatly end up with three terms and one ground..do you know if i can use these encoder seeing they only have the three terms and no ground? oh and just to let you know im the same way with the multiple projects after i post this i have to check the salinity in my reef tank then run upstairs to check the epoxy on one of my rc planes....thats if the two month old son of mine lets me do that before he wakes up to eat. wouldnt say its a character flaw as much as it is a character builder.:cool: oh yeah figured i would let you know im gonna base this pit on the pmdg 737 i think that is gonna come into play i thought i read that somewhere..go big or go home right

[Buddym]

Ha, go big for sure! Yep, that slogan seems to apply to this hobby in every way! To be honest, it's one of those "biting off more than you can chew"situations for me, so I will forever be doing some things 2 or 3 times to get it right. I am not sure anyone can get a sense of what this involves until they attempt it.

The encoders you have may or may not work with the OC mc. The mc wants th encoder output to be "gray" (grey?). I use the "CTS288" encoders from Digikey, although I did just buy some smaller encoders on ebay and have yet to test them out with the mc. They are all 3 pin encoders, the center terminal connects to ground and the other 2 terminals connect to 2 CONSECUTIVE inputs on the mc. Other types of encoders, maybe the ones you have, need to be connected to the OC encoders card. The CTS288's end up being about $3 each I think, maybe worth spending the money since they are tried and true, and only use 2 inputs per encoder, not counting an input for the pushbutton switch if you use it. If you connect an encoder to th mc as I mentioned, you can run the controlador program and look at the pattern it generates when turned. If connected to pins 000 and 001 on group 1, you will see a repetitive pattern of the 2 inputs going on and off, and the pattern will be reveresed when the encoder is turned the other direction.


I found the link I was looking for that has more info on IOCARDS stuff:

http://personales.ya.com/micabina737/iocards/hard/guiai.htm

Click on the green checkmarks for each item.

Buddy

[djcevera20]

buddy thanks yet again...my cards should be arriving today so i am excited about getting things started...

[djcevera20]

ok parts are starting to come in now to build..gonna start tonight..i was wondering if anyone knows of a site were i could download some lables for my mcp and nav/com stack? thanks

[Buddym]

I take it you are building a Boeing cockpit?


BuddyM

[djcevera20]

yup gonna base the pit on pmdgs 737...which reminds me is there anything special i need to take into consideration with this project and plane seeing its not a default fs plane

[Buddym]

yeah, i think there quite a few differences with the FSUIPC offsets, but since I am no expert, and have zero experience with that aircraft model/system it's prob best to consult the Boeing drivers.

BuddyM

[djcevera20]

ok another question everyone....seeing im building the mcp in my garage and the fs pc is in the house what i was wondering is it possible to build and then download the needed software from oc to my laptop then make my connections to the iocards and somehow test everything on the laptop...is it possible to actually set all of my off sets and then save the file and download it to the fs pc... i think the fsuipc offsets for default boeings are avail from oc so i think i can just you those to build the file...please correct me if im wrong...reason for this idea is to prevent me from running back and forth cant solder in the house...got a newborn in there:)

[Michael Carter]

Once you've created the .ini file in FSUIPC on the laptop you can e-mail it to yourself or get it from the laptop via network connection.

I did the former as it was faster to just copy and paste it. Besides, you may not want to overwrite the entire file and this will allow you to make additions or changes without having to re-name the file or overwrite anything you don't wish to.

You should be able to do everything on the laptop as if it were the FS computer. My MIP display was created on another computer and loaded to the FS computer FS folders.

[djcevera20]

could someone please post a link to the download i need for the software needed to program my master and display cards for some reason my pc wont let me change the language and i cant read spanish i have the the needed goods for the build but now i cant get the software....thanks in advance.

[Buddym]

Download the iocards ver 3.4 update here:

http://www.opencockpits.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Downloads&d_op=viewdownload&cid=63

[djcevera20]

ok well i got all of the switches mounted and soldered to the mcp panel but im having a **** of a time trying to solder the 7 seg displays to the board. these connections are so small and close together that i keep getting solder bridges is there anyone out there that could suggest some tricks to me that would help i have already damaged one display..i know they have pcb for the displays over at oc but im trying to avoid going that route.

[Buddym]

I know this is a dumb question, but I have to ask..... are you mounting them on a board of some kind? I mean not soldering directly to the display?

If you are soldering them into a project board of some kind and solder bridges are a problem, try a smaller iron, smaller touches of solder. If you still get them clean them off with solder wick or a solder sucker. In a few instances I have seen folks put a run of masking tape on the adjacent pads to keep solder from flowing onto them.

I would say that most solder bridges I create are due to excessive solder.

BuddyM

[djcevera20]

ok need a little help understanding sioc and oc turtorial is kinda hard to understand is there anywhere else i might be able to do some reading on this...could someone please show me an example of there code.
thanks

[Buddym]

Hi, sounds like you are making progress. For OC programming, SIOC in particular, I think from what I have read Nico is one of the defacto subject matter experts. Have you looked at his site?

http://www.lekseecon.nl/sioc.html



BuddyM

[djcevera20]

its funny im still wiring things up just trying to get a jump on everything figured i would take a break from the wiring and do some reading on programming thanks for the link buddy.

[djcevera20]

just figured i would touch base the mcp is comming along well will post pics soon ...im looking for a tutorial to build either a transponder or a multi radio could someone please help with that...thank you

[Buddym]

when you say tutorial, do you mean from scratch? If so, panel dimensions are ez enough to get, layout is simple, and if you use the OpenCockpits stuff there are a couple of examples on the website using SIOC. I think Brian W. here finished his radio panel not long ago, using IOCards software if I remember correctly. My panel is not finished yet, but I have tested all of the peices using IOCards software. I forget, are you doing a Boeing or Airbus? Mine is the multi-radio style Airbus and I have 2 5-digit PCBs, one for stby and one for active. I have several pushbuttons for selecting the radio funstion I want to display or change, and one to toggle act/stby. I only have one rotary encoder, so I will either use the bushbutton in the encoder to switch from whole units to decimals, or get an encoder card that can read the dual-shaft encoder I got from cockpitsonicusa (they have been very helpful, even though I have only purchased an encoder and knobs). The dual encoder has a different output format and cannot connect directly to the OC mastercard. The overall scheme is that you use the pushbuttons to select a radio function, andthat radio becomes the "radio" that the panel displays and changes. It should work fine, but I do intend to build an additional panel with an LCD display that will show all of the radio frequencies at the same time to augment the multi-radio.

Look here for some more tips:
http://www.opencockpits.com/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=viewdownload&cid=54

If you decide to make your own panel drop me a line and I will send you a panel layout if you want. I bought mine from a company that is no longer around. Too bad too, it's a nice panel.

BuddyM

[djcevera20]

buddy that would be great if you could send me a panel layout as i do want to build my own. you could send it to timgoodwinjr@comcast.net if you like. thanks again. oh yeah and thanks for the link.

[djcevera20]

another quick question....i have not yet tested my controls in fs however i have tested them using the oc software my question is i noticed i have a toggle switch connected to input oo1 and when using the oc software i flip the toggle and the 001 shows then flip it again it disapears now when i set this toggle to a command say i put it to the beacon when i flip the switch in the fs because it is a toggle is the program going to think i am holding down the key and it is going to turn the beacon on and off and on and off..... or does the master card just sends a pulse? sorry if i am being vauge

[Buddym]

in the software definition for the switch there is a type field you use to identify the switch at pushbutton type or toggle type. that sounds like what you are experiencing.


BuddyM

[djcevera20]

thank you buddy you are a wealth of knowledge....there for i have another question for you. :p you can tell me to shut up at any time i know i must be getting a little iritating...but what type of switch would i use say for a tranponder panel i know i would use an encoder to change my freq but what would i use to switch from standby to xpndr/ra/tcas and so forth...how would i wire this switch as well...if you can answere this one you truely are the man

[Buddym]

I am more than happy to offer help...just keep in mind that I am hardly the man on this forum, Nico, Brian,etc.... too many to mention in fact are way better at this than I am, and certainly have more knowledge. I suspect that I just have more time in front of the keyboard than they do, which enables me to offer my opinions more often. I am sure you have already found errors in my responses but are to polite to tell me! Which aircraft did you say you were building?

Anyway, I have seen some use a rotary switch to change functions, and I have seen some use a pushbutton switch for each function. I bet someone like Nico can do it with a pair of pushbuttons or a rotary encoder, being that he is proficient with SIOC. On the multi-radio setup I have a seperate pushbutton for each radio function, like nav1, nav2, com1, etc. Each switch is wired to an input and ground. Pushing the button causes the input to see the switch close and the software toggles the displays, rotary encoder(s), and act/stby toggle switch to reflect and act upon the FSUIPC offsets and IOcards variables for the selected function. An LED for each pushbutton could be connected to an output per button to indicate which radio is selected.Other panels like tcas and xponders could probably be wired in the same way.

Likewise, a single-pole, multi-position rotary switch could be setup to do the same thing, I think this is how the plug and play OC radio module works. Probably just change the switch type in the config. The upside here would be the position of the switch would indicate which function is selected and no LEDs are needed for that (saves outputs). I know Brian W has a recently operational radio (great looking unit too), perhaps he will read this and has additional input.

here's another scheme:
I havent tried it yet, but Nico (kiek) might know how, or if it even will work,

A group of 5 pushbutton switches for selecting different radios on a multi-radio will need 5 inputs. If you used an encoder and had software (probably SIOC) that could use the backward/forward signals to step through software variable values that indicate which radio is selected you would only use 2 inputs. You would still need LEDs to indicate which radio is selected, but it seems to me that saving inputs is a good thing.

I hope any of this helps. As I mentioned before, seek additional input from the veterans here when possible because I get things working, but there's usually a better way than mine. I am still working on my FCU and have only tested my multi-radio in sections on the bench, it's not even whole yet!

BuddyM

[djcevera20]

Ok I think I might understand this say I use a 12 pos switch to toggle from standby to xpndr I wire pole 1 to input #1 and pole 2 to input #2 and say the offset fr standby is just for sake 123 and the offset for xpnd is 1234 in the config io cards program I would set the values to correspond to the switch say when pole 1 is contacted it is putting the radio in standby and if I change to pole 2 the radio switches to xpnd??? Please correct me if im completely wrong. Can I just use simple 0 and 1 values for these in the onkey off key fields in the program….as you can tell ive decided to just stick with the oc programming rather than sioc…oh yeah and to answere your first question im basing this pit on the pmdg 737

[Buddym]

basically that's correct in theory, each pole selects a different function by way of the input and software funtion programmed for each pole.

[djcevera20]

has anyone built there own pcb for 7 seg displays im trying to figure out a way to connect 3 displays and limit the wire mess!! kenair had a cool idea by adding a connection bord directly to the display card but i need a way to connect the displays together ie piggy back the a thru g connections on the displays themselves...woooo hoooo starting to go crazy.....:grin:

[Buddym]

I made a bus card similar to 1 I saw on another builders site, takes the segment leads and jumps them to several other identical sets of idc pins, then each digit board plugs into 1 of those, and then the appropriate digit lead is connected for each digit, directly to the display card. I know what you mean with the wiring mess! I thought about making a pcb or backplane out of perfboard with sockets to plug the digits boards into. With some care it would actually work well to integrate that function onto the same perfboard that I have for the LED backlighting. Only issue would be distance from the sockets to the panel, since I made my own panel and the switches and encoders mount directly onto the panel. Like many others here, I have designed the PCBs for such things, but don't end up ordering them due to the cost, although as of late the cost has gone down quite a bit. If we all made the same plane/panels/etc we could co-op...alas...no 2 cockpits alike!

BuddyM

[djcevera20]

buddy you happen to have a photo do you?

[Buddym]

are you making a pass at me? Oh! you meant a photo of the buss card!! (just kidding!) I will take one and post it in about 4 hours when I get home..meanwhile I will look and see if I can find a link to the one I saw online.

On another note, if you are building panels, what switches did you use for the pushbuttons on the glare panels? I may make a new fcu panel and wanted to use the buttons like OC sells, but was trying to find them here in US to avoid the extra shipping costs. Maybe someone reading this will know the manf oand or part number. I was hoping to find them in a large enough qty. to build the fcu and efis panels with them.

Also... if you are building your own panels, how are you applying lettering/labels?


edit: the switches appear to be miyama ds-661, does anyone know a US distributor?
BuddyM

[djcevera20]

;)...sounds like i still got it...thought i lost it when i got married and had a kid... lol ...ok on a serious note the buttons im currently using are very basic push buttons from a local supply store and my housing is an old video reciever basically mocked up everything to try to get the hang of everything....now i will tear it all apart and start building with mdf board and plexiglass (plexi is gonna be used for panels and i will then engrave the lables with a dremal....unless i can find somewhere to print some out...my design has changed a millon times....when i do the final build i think im gonna change my buttons to the ones like oc but got to find somewhere in the us like you..if you come across somewhere let me know i will do the same if i find somewhere first. i think the buttons im gonna go with will be the kind where you dont have to solder so i can minimize the needed soldering this way i can disconnect things quickly.

[Buddym]

I don't know of anyplace to get those switches yes, but it seems that really the OC price isn't too bad even with shipping. The slow shipping is 10 euro, so the total for 22 switches works out to $3.18 per switch, not bad really. We have a surplus shop in Orlando where they would probably be $2 or $3 each, plus tax so the price would be the same.

Regarding the panels, I have cut several from 1/8" plastic (polycarb). They come out great and are opaque so backlighting comes thru nicely. I still don't have the engraving process down though. I am going to make a starter switch panel tonight and apply an ink jet label to it and see how it works. I have already printed the label and it looks great. I may use this method permanently if I can't get the engraving to work for me. I can't use plexi cuz my cnc machine is too slow and the material melts and breaks the bit. ($30 each!!!) To tell the truth, I love to make my own, but some of the cockpitsonicusa panels look to be a bargain. For instance, the EFIS panels with electronics are not unreasonable at all. The parts alone are probably $40 my cost, and the panel is pre-cut and labelled.

Anyway, more rambling............this is an obsessive hobby.


BuddyM

[djcevera20]

buddy would you be interested in making some extra cash if i were to ask you to make a few panels using your cnc i have to make mine with a dremel and it not only takes forever but its easy to screw things up... i would obviously pay for materials shipping and your time...lmk

[Buddym]

I would be happy to help in that way, but since I am a beginner I would ask that you send me a file, I will cut it and send it back to you. After it's cut and you examine it you can decide if you want me to do any others. If you are going to spend money on panels you should make sure they are worth your money, and my panels so far are not anything close to what the vendors like OC and Cockpitsonic have. I hope to get to that point. I am going to start cutting the start panel in a few minutes, when it is cut and labeled I will post a pic you can look at. There are som other guys here that make panels that are awesome! I am more than happy to help, but get everyone's input and pricing first so you can get the best panel for your money!

Regarding the simple buss card I made for the display digits, here is a pic:

The cable on the right goes to the segment pins on the displays card, then each digit pcb plugs into one of the sets of segment pins on this card.

BuddyM

[Buddym]

Here are a few pics of the start panel during trial assembly tonight. The label is just a paper lable for testing, the sticker will look better, no wrinkles!
The panel took 16 minutes to cut on the cnc machine, slow, but accurate. The pushbuttons are illuminated and the Master Switch toggles are locking with a very nifty pull-knob that I found. Not spec, so the purists will poo-poo it, but they will look great stenciled with ENGINE 1 and ENGINE 2 on them. The panel is translucent so backlighting will work well if I decide to put it in. Still have to get some more authentic knobs for all of this stuff. Maybe cast them in resin myself, who knows.......

BuddyM