Environment Sounds and ButtKicker Question [Archive]

ddimm

03-27-2009, 08:41 AM

Hello All -

I would like for my ButtKicker sub woofer to "rattle" me around when I fly through clouds, turbulence etc. This would add more overall realism to the sim experience. Does anyone know if there are replacement environment sounds with the low frequencies to accomplish this? What have others done to achieve this effect?

Thanks in advance,
Daniel

Per Alm

03-27-2009, 08:56 AM

I think that turbulence in FS has no sound component. It's just a visual effect.
Correct me if I'm wrong!

Which FS version do you use?

I know FS 2004 don't support 5.1 surround audio, I'm not sure about FSX.

This is not the answer to your question but might be interesting anyway.

I split the speaker cables and instead of having front L and R i actually have front and rear L and R speakers. No true surround audio I know but it really "puts you into the cockpit" with engine sound all around.

Also I use different speakers for the front and rear systems which enhances the dynamics of the sound further.

Best Regards

Per Alm

ddimm

03-27-2009, 09:06 AM

I think that turbulence in FS has no sound component. It's just a visual effect.
Correct me if I'm wrong!

Which FS version do you use?

I know FS 2004 don't support 5.1 surround audio, I'm not sure about FSX.

This is not the answer to your question but might be interesting anyway.

I split the speaker cables and instead of having front L and R i actually have front and rear L and R speakers. No true surround audio I know but it really "puts you into the cockpit" with engine sound all around.

Also I use different speakers for the front and rear systems which enhances the dynamics of the sound further.

Best Regards

Per Alm
Thanks for the info. I didn't know if there was a sound component for the clouds. I do know there are components for the wind. There must be some way to trigger off the event when flying thru different cloud layers....Is there anything in FSUIPC's weather interface that could be used to trigger such an event?

BTW - I am using FSX on Windows XP 32bit.

Per Alm

03-27-2009, 09:35 AM

I have thought of this myself. It would be fantastic to somehow transfer the turbulence movements to buttkicker.

Please let me know if you find a solution.

Regards / Per

Michael Carter

03-27-2009, 09:41 AM

I think that turbulence in FS has no sound component. It's just a visual effect.
Correct me if I'm wrong!

Which FS version do you use?

I know FS 2004 don't support 5.1 surround audio, I'm not sure about FSX.

This is not the answer to your question but might be interesting anyway.

I split the speaker cables and instead of having front L and R i actually have front and rear L and R speakers. No true surround audio I know but it really "puts you into the cockpit" with engine sound all around.

Also I use different speakers for the front and rear systems which enhances the dynamics of the sound further.

Best Regards

Per Alm

I did the same thing. I'm using a pair of hi-frequency deficient tabletop speakers for the front left and right. This covers the wind noise pretty well and other sounds. The rear speakers are a more high-end and the responce is much better on them. It reproduces the hi pitch whine and hiss of the engines and gasper fans as well as the other sounds better than the other two.

Not exactly surround-sound, but much better than having all the sound coming from the glareshield.

I have a 100W powered 10" sub that takes care of the landing gear bump and doors, landings, engine rumble in reverse and AC rumble.

I've never heard turbulence or felt a low frequency bump while flying real aircraft.

ddimm

03-27-2009, 10:41 AM

I did the same thing. I'm using a pair of hi-frequency deficient tabletop speakers for the front left and right. This covers the wind noise pretty well and other sounds. The rear speakers are a more high-end and the responce is much better on them. It reproduces the hi pitch whine and hiss of the engines and gasper fans as well as the other sounds better than the other two.

Not exactly surround-sound, but much better than having all the sound coming from the glareshield.

I have a 100W powered 10" sub that takes care of the landing gear bump and doors, landings, engine rumble in reverse and AC rumble.

I've never heard turbulence or felt a low frequency bump while flying real aircraft.
I was flying back to Atlanta Hartsfield Jackson on Tuesday and as we descended thru the clouds the plane (and my seat) started to shake. That's when I thought ...Why can't we reproduce that in FSX using the ButtKicker or something similar.

Michael Carter

03-27-2009, 11:10 AM

I don't think a sub can produce any frequency that low. I've been shaken in an airliner seat too, but the frequency occilations are much less than what a sub could produce.

It wouldn't be the same effect. Maybe Gwyn could explain it better.

Per Alm

03-27-2009, 11:18 AM

I was flying back to Atlanta Hartsfield Jackson on Tuesday and as we descended thru the clouds the plane (and my seat) started to shake. That's when I thought ...Why can't we reproduce that in FSX using the ButtKicker or something similar.

The problem is I guess that you need to extract some sort of data from FS.....and in this case transform it into vibrations. This is easliy done if the data to extracted is sound but visual information is something different.

"Visual data (turbulence in FS) converted to movements (ButtKicker)"

It would be very nice and of course it can be done somehow!?? I guess......any ideas??

/ Per

Adino

03-27-2009, 11:32 AM

yeah...there must be an offset within FS for this since if you notice when you are flying in to heavy turbulents the fs aircraft will shake as well.....

ddimm

03-27-2009, 12:02 PM

I wonder if IanH1960's "screen motion simulation" could be used as an interface to accomplish this. Instead of screen output ... sound that drives the Buttkicker.

"As with my projector driver software the screen motion is derived from the live flight motion data using algorithms I've developed and is therefore closely matched to the aircraft motion." "You will need an up-to-date copy of FSIUPC installed as this is how the sim data is extracted."<link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5Cddimm%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><style>  </style> http://buggies.builtforfun.co.uk/Sim...tion-page3.php (http://buggies.builtforfun.co.uk/Sim/display-motion-page3.php)

Jackpilot

03-27-2009, 12:34 PM

Do not forget that PMSound (free BTW) can be set on each computer and just by checking the little boxes you can divert specific sounds to specific computers...ie: wind sound in front, avionics buzz from the panel, flaps or spoiler rumble on the sides, GPWS in the Overhead speaker...etc etc. can be used on your network, even if you do not have Project Magenta software.

IanH1960

03-28-2009, 10:13 AM

I wonder if IanH1960's "screen motion simulation" could be used as an interface to accomplish this. Instead of screen output ... sound that drives the Buttkicker.

Hi,

Interesting thought - in the motion platform driver software the tubulence related movement effects come mainly from the vertical acceleration or gforce output from FS. This can be quite active in turbulent conditions.

However these acceleration fluctations are characteristically at lower frequencies than those you would normally associate with a "sound" output device. At a guess I'd say 2Hz at fastest depending on the aircraft type off course.

It might be possible to construct an output signal with higher frequency which would use the actual gforce movement frequencies and amplitudes as an input so that the generated output "sound" would match the actual vertical acceleration variation of the aircraft in some way. Not sure what it would feel like though.

Roughly what frequency range would the buttkicker output need to be?

Ian

ddimm

03-28-2009, 08:35 PM

Hello Ian -

The frequency response of the ButtKicker is 10-250hz. From FlightSim.com - "The ButtKicker Gamer is a small, linear motor, which reacts to an audio signal sent by an 100 watt amplifier. The unit comes as a complete kit with amplifier, shaker, cables and all the accessories you need to connect it to either your PC or game console.
The shaker is similar to a loudspeaker, but instead of moving a cone, and transferring sound waves through the air, it attaches to your seat column and sends low frequency sound directly into your body. The effect is amazing and extremely powerful."
Here is a link to a review of the product from FlightSim.com. http://www.flightsim.com/main/review/bk.htm It may provide some additional information and insight on the product.

Let us know what you think. Thanks!!!!
Daniel

KenK

03-29-2009, 02:13 PM

Hi everyone:

I have been doing this on my turboprop sim for a while with a small PLC
and an audio mixer found in the trash. It is not sophisticated but it does randomly jolt the seats. The diagram doesnt show this but I it is enabled by "gear up". So you you dont get jolted when parked on the ground.

It worked pretty well but i am revising it to use an output from my Phidgets led 64. The plan was to use Offset $0842 (Vspeed) then
set it up as a new variable with "range of values". Then I will use the setpoints to trigger a PhotoMos relay from the Phidgets card. The setpoint would activate only at high rates of climb or descent such as turbulence.
A capacitor might be required to extend the pulse width to the audio mixer input to achieve a hard jolt!!!

I havent had time to do this yet but maybe someone wants to try it.

Regards
Ken K

Ronson2k9

04-10-2009, 10:10 AM

Could you use the force feedback module in FSX to trigger the turbulence feeling. I know not to many use it but it is there..

Just a thought..

KenK

04-10-2009, 12:04 PM

Hmmm...

I never thought of that. I do use FS9 but it does have minimal force feedback. There is a thread here to enhance it on Fs9:

http://www.planesimulation.com/articles/fs9_QandA.htm

Maybe these values would crank up FSX bumps too.
I have to find a sound SDC this is definately something I will look into.

Ken K

KenK

04-10-2009, 12:34 PM

The other part of the problem is converting the Force Feedback signals to
sound pulses . I think the transducer used in the MS Sidewinder for force feedback is a motor. The characteristics of this signal may be in an SDC someplace. I will check this out when I have time

Ken K

ddimm

04-10-2009, 01:01 PM

Could you use the force feedback module in FSX to trigger the turbulence feeling. I know not to many use it but it is there..

Just a thought..

That's a really interesting idea....I remember using my old MS Sidewinder joystick and actually feeling the effects of a stall...If we could feel the shuddering along with hearing the stall horn... it puts us a little closer to "as real as it gets".

Ronson2k9

04-10-2009, 06:25 PM

All you would need is the signal. If the signal is available you should be able to send that to switch to activate or deactivate the turbulence or amplify the signal to get the desired effect. When I first heard about buttkicker I had thought I worked off of FF but it was using sound.

I'm looking forward to what you can come up with on this one as I'm planning a floatplane pit and landing on water has quite a bit turbulence.

KenK

04-11-2009, 03:43 PM

We would need to look at the FF signal with a scope and see when it occurs. I thought it was a linear signal that increased the torque on the joystick based on certain events like high g manuevers. But as some of you know, Turbulence can indeed be a High G manuever. I dont have a FF joystick to check this with. The D/A conversion for FF torque is probably done in the joystick downstream from the usb port. So an FF joystick would be needed to check this.

What I was hoping to do was trigger a ButtKicker pulse with any high excursion of the VSI (>3000fpm). The LED-64 has setpoints that can trigger an event when certain things occur like high VSI excursions.Why not an optocoupler to pulse Buttkicker?

Maybe some SDK explains FF . Im still looking at this too.

Regards to all
Ken K

mlscotti

06-09-2009, 05:35 PM

Hello Ian -

The frequency response of the ButtKicker is 10-250hz. From FlightSim.com - "The ButtKicker Gamer is a small, linear motor, which reacts to an audio signal sent by an 100 watt amplifier. The unit comes as a complete kit with amplifier, shaker, cables and all the accessories you need to connect it to either your PC or game console.
The shaker is similar to a loudspeaker, but instead of moving a cone, and transferring sound waves through the air, it attaches to your seat column and sends low frequency sound directly into your body. The effect is amazing and extremely powerful."

Here is a link to a review of the product from FlightSim.com. http://www.flightsim.com/main/review/bk.htm It may provide some additional information and insight on the product.

Let us know what you think. Thanks!!!!
Daniel

It is awesome, I use it. origionally connected to my "Car Seat" but actually moved it to connect with the floor or the sim instead so both seats get the feel. I too would love it we could synch the kicker to simulate landing bumps, turbulance and even breaks in concrete..Now that would be sweeeeet!

flyboy01

06-10-2009, 06:29 AM

I can remember reading a thread on a forum (not sure if it was this one or not) and someone mentioned that they had the butkicker, and that they felt all the taxi bumps and even the bumps as they went over the taxi way lights. They were so impressed with the experience it added to their sim. i will keep looking for the thread and will let you know if i find it. Would be worth asking how they produced those bumps for taxi, and running over taxi way lights. These i would imagine are not sound generated events.
Trev

Holclo

06-10-2009, 07:15 AM

I can remember reading a thread on a forum (not sure if it was this one or not) and someone mentioned that they had the butkicker, and that they felt all the taxi bumps and even the bumps as they went over the taxi way lights. They were so impressed with the experience it added to their sim. i will keep looking for the thread and will let you know if i find it. Would be worth asking how they produced those bumps for taxi, and running over taxi way lights. These i would imagine are not sound generated events.
Trev
As far as I can remember the taxi bump sounds are part of AES airports - that is where you may have found a thread relating to this.
Bill