Panel build concept for 172...help and advice needed!

[JimmyGerrard]

Hello guys,

The time has come for me to expand my simpit a bit to make it a little more realistic, but I don't really know where to start. I am on a budget so really cost is of the essence and I need to keep it as low as possible. I'm going to do my real training in May next year so money is short just now!

I have therefore decided that I will follow the idea of the 'Propit' concept from VR insight, so will inset a 21" monitor in to a purpose-built MDF 'panel' like below, but of course without the switches and push-buttons on the propit unit (way beyond my technical capabilities). I will extend it to also incorporate my goflight modules, so it will be a decent training aid for me and should incorporate most gauges and systems.

http://secure.simmarket.com/vr-insight-pro-pit.phtml

Therefore what I am looking for is a software that will allow me to position gauges on a 4th monitor, and allow me to fully customize them so when I make the 'fascia plate' to go over the screen, the gauges are in place and look decent, like on the VR Insight page itself. It would also be ideal if this configuration could be saved so I wouldn't have to reconfigure it every time I loaded up the 172.

I am also interested in embedding a small 7" screen to use as a GPS, can anyone recommend a model or what I should be looking for? I have no experience with anything this small!

What kind of impact is this likely to have on framerates? I am running a TH2GO, have loads of RAM, 3ghz quad core processor and a GTX295, so I am hoping these extensions will not affect performance too much.

Also, I only have one spare port on my GTX295, but combining the 7" screen and the new panel monitor would leave me needing 2...is there any easy way around this or will I need to get a dual head 2 go?

All ideas at the mo but any advice most welcome!

Thanks,

James

[Matt Olieman]

Hi James, welcome aboard. You're in the right place for those type of questions :) :) :)

Lot's of help here.

Good Luck,
Matt Olieman

[No Longer Active]

Hi Jimmy,

Leave this one with me.......

Bit busy, cant respond now but will help you out on this on Sunday.....

Speak real soon!

Cheers,

Alex....

BTW....I am building the Cessna 182 in a similar way to your ideas...will be great to collaborate.....

[No Longer Active]

This is my sim so far'ish......this just uses a 19".

Do you really need a 21" ?

http://alexpilot.50g.com/pict0007.jpg

[JimmyGerrard]

Hi Alex, looks great. Maybe I don't need it, but my mum is chucking her's out so I am going to go with the 22"! :D

I am a little more limited for space than yourself so my design will have to be slightly different, I will probably have to crop the curve for the right hand side a bit, and I've also got a number of Goflight units that I'd like to incorporate, so will have to have a think on how best to do it for the radio stack. Also not sure what I'll do with my GF-LGT, part of me thinks I'll keep it in for flap and trim control (but it looks so bloody big and bulky).

Have you also thought about integrating a GPS? Having had a look on the bay I can get a 7" touchscreen, if I can build it in then that will be cool. Or even bolt it on to the panel like a Garmin 296 etc.

Can I assume that you have cut your panel to slot it straight over the standard aircraft 2D view? My problem is that I have my own radios, so that makes placing it all over a screen impossible. What I will probably need is a software that allows me to position the gauges in to some kind of order, and then put the radio stack alongside the monitor. I am sure there is a software to do this out there, but I am not sure what one I'd need.

Interesting times though. :-)

[No Longer Active]

Hello....

My thoughts on your project......

If you intend to build your simpit for IFR training, if it was me, I would not build the GPS, the reason being is that if your are learning to fly IFR then it would be great practice to fly using instruments and not by GPS, good old fashioned IFR training doesn't incorporate the GPS, its best just to fly IFR using the good old fashioned and brilliant VOR's, just make sure you have atleast 2 NAV's for your VOR's and make sure you have atleast 2 com's (for obvious reasons), an autopilot is excellent for cruising and DME is very handy aswell as a good old fashioned XPDR (ATC is crucial!).

But as said this is my opinion, but if you are very much a VFR flyer then I admit a GPS is mega simple and straight forward fun operation....

But for now, if I was you, I would just concentrate on the gauges and radio equipment, the GPS could be added later, but is definitely not priority especially within IFR training (well not yet anyway)...

As for building the GPS, A 7" Screen will do the job lovely, a touch screen will also save you the hassle of adding buttons/encoders etc then interfacing them etc, so what you said will do the job perfectly....although it does take up a video card output....

As for displaying gauges...you have 2 options really.....

Use Peix software or Project Magenta IFR software...

You can move, resize, add, delete, modify all the gauges so that you can create you own cockpit layout by adding a screen.

Peix is 35 Euros's but quality is not as good, but cheap!
PM is 300 Euro's and is the best that money can buy, its top notch software!

Id go for PM if you could afford it, but Peix will definitely do the job!

http://www.peixsoft.com/
http://www.projectmagenta.com/

Both have demo's that you can download and try!

As for framerates, if you are running:

Your main visual
Your gauges
Your GPS

all from 1 computer then expect the framerates to drop, how much depends on your pc / video card spec....

Many people will network 2 pc's together and run gauges from 12 pc and visuals from another, that way you wont experience a framerate drop or anywhere near what you would have on a 1 pc setup anyway, as 2 compurter will share the load as compared to 1 pc doing all the work on its own....

But a 3ghz Quad should be ok on 1 PC, will work a dream if you have FS9...I have no experience with FSX so I really can't comment!

For networking you will need: FSUIPC reg'd and WideWiew/WideClient from Peter Dowson.....

http://www.schiratti.com/dowson.html

As for your enclosure, if you are not making a replica or any particular aircraft but are basing it on an aircraft, then you really can just do what the heck you want to do as for design, but make sure it has similarities to the aircraft that you wish to fly for obvious reasons, there is no reason why you couldn't make a half sized scale replica, just captain side only! Or just design your very own generic cockpit using all the Cessna's IFR gauges etc etc etc.....you get the jist!

Anyway, I hope I have been of some help to you.....

I'm only down the road from you (Essex)...

Let me know how you get on.....

Cheers!

Alex

[JimmyGerrard]

Alex that's absolutely great, nice to get some sense from somebody on the uncivilized side of the water. :D

Think I will start off with Peix, I don't think I need anything better than that and the whole purpose is to keep cost down, so PM is a bit too out there I think. I also like the fact that looking at the site, the panel download and the radio are separate, so I can realistically work with the panel and set my Goflight radios up as I need to. One question; will it use the same panel if I was to say fly the default 172, or for example the Carenado Cherokee?

And also, I currently have goflight gyros which when I turn, change Baro, HI, OBS etc. I imagine these are compatible with the instruments within Peix?

I am currently getting between 40-50 FSP on FSX over three screens with the HD 3D cockpit, so I am hoping that switching to the more basic panel- albeit it on a second output- will not affect that frame level too much. I think you're right about holding off on the GPS now, might be better to see how it performs with the amended panel and think of adding it later. I would also need to get a DualHead2go to run it, which at this moment isn't very cost-effective.

I will probably go down the route of making just the Captain's side (bearing in mind I rent so will probably move house at some point soon :D), but will have a sit-down and think how best I am going to do this.

I am absolutely trash at DIY, so I might think about finding a tradesman (friend of a friend kind of thing!) who could build something for me...but then part of me thinks that's all part of the fun!

Will keep you posted on how it comes along.

James

[No Longer Active]

Hi,

Peix is a good choice, and good value.

Peix displays it's GA panel from data from FS, I guess you would be able to use any flight model, the GA panel is based on the Cessna/Piper so I would of thought that if your flight model is one of these then you would have no problems getting the data out so that Paix can display them on the Peix panel.

I don't have goflight modules, so I am not too sure if goflight would work with this, but in my opinion; I see no reason why it wouldn't work.

My guess and best bit of advice is; base your sim on the MSFS Cessna 172 and you will have no problems.

As for frame rates with your hardware running FSX, it would be impossible to comment, but your PC sure looks beefy, so I guess you will not have any problems, and as Peix is quite low-res, my guess is that you will not have a frame rate problem at all, you should get some pretty impressive speeds! Especially a low-res GA panel that has no need to display any hi-res graphics.

GPS: Hold off the GPS and learn to fly IFR first before you build the GPS, then use your GPS as an addition to your IFR knowledge once you have gained it, then use the GPS for VFR and take some really cool pleasure flights out!

As for building:


I am absolutely trash at DIY

So am I lol!, again it's a learning curve, so learn how to build, slowly slowly, build a small bit every few days or each week, learn by your mistakes an improve, its a bit like learning to fly, lol.....you're in the right place for building a cockpit so we and I am always here to help every step of the way!

Just decide, what you really want out of your sim and what you need it for, does it need to be a replica or to scale? Would a generic pit be easy to build etc etc etc....

As for building I would definitely build a Cessna IFR flight model as it is pretty much industry standard for PPL's, Pipers are excellent too, but there are more resources, sim parts and software for the Cessna than there are Piper's etc....

To be honest... I don't actually think you need a panel, I would just use your screen as your MIP and build a stack next to it for radio.

Then...when you fancy the full thing, build a full scale replica, with the added bonus that you will of by then fully learnt IFR and you will have a much better knowledge and understanding of how to actually build a full scale cockpit...

Anyway....its decisions, decisions!

Just make sure you plan everything first and fully be aware of what you want your sim for/ to do!

Cheers,

Alex

[No Longer Active]

BTW: Would the Carenado Cherokee be a 'what's hot' aircraft? LOL

[JimmyGerrard]

Hey mate, I don't necessarily need the panel..but then most of the guys here don't NEED A full scale 737NG in their spare rooms. It's all about the immersion for me. :D

I am leaning towards the PA-28, bearing in mind it's likely to be the aircraft I train in. That said, the Peix software looks as though it is primarily configured for the Cessna, so I will probably download it and see how customisable it is. One thing that did worry me was:

GOOD NEWS: A totally redesigned GA Panel is under development, with more gauges, graphics smoothness, lower CPU use and fully customizable. The demands of instruments from customers will be easy to add, and it will support hardware interfaces (real lights, switches, etc). Also Helicopter's gauges will be included.

Kind of leads me to think maybe it doesn't support Goflight modules yet, which would be a shame. I will download the demo next weekend and see what it can do though. I wonder if there is some kind of site where you can download other peoples' created panels, that might be a good option too.

I am getting there with an image of what I want to achieve though which is great. Will keep the thinking cap on for a bit longer before I go ahead with anything else, usually I tend to rush in to things but I think in this case it pays to sit back and think for a while.

What do you plan to do for a wet compass Alex, just out of interest? Had a look at the simkits one but it's mighty expensive. Also came across this, how easy do you think it will be to replace the Saitek yokeface with this, bearing in mind the elctronics contained within the front 'wheel' of the Saitek (clock etc.)? Pretty tough I would imagine.

http://www.simkits.com/product.php?prodid=318

Exciting times though, that's for sure. :D

[No Longer Active]

Hi as for the Yoke....

This is pretty much a replica of the Cessna yoke we all know today, it is just the yoke only, it's plastic, it's lightweight, it's hollow, it's......just a yoke and that's it. Excellent if you wish to make a yoke from scratch, baring in mind you will have to weight it down, or fill it with something ( I have seen people glue 2p coins to the inside ) Weight is needed without a doubt, you could take off your saitek yoke and replace it with one of these, but this could prove tricky, and I mean really tricky, best bet would be to just keep what you have got....or build a yoke from scratch and use this yoke handle assembly. I would just stay put with what you have got, you don't want to chance breaking your only yoke would you!

As for the wet compass...yeah these are good, mega expensive, but if I was you, I would just use the compass on your display for now, it's not priority, you can always display a simulated compass on your screen, or build a dummy, then interface it somehow later....I would love one of these too, as I myself want's one, I am thinking up a set of plans to make one of these dirt cheap, so gimme time on this one!

As for Peix.....I am really new to this, I only knew about peix up until about a month ago, discovered it by mistake really....Chances are that I will purchase Project Magenta, so I haven't really gone down the Peix route in too much detail yet, I am configuring my whole sim based on Project Magenta, that was my plan, so I am going through with it!

As for.....


GOOD NEWS: A totally redesigned GA Panel is under development, with more gauges, graphics smoothness, lower CPU use and fully customizable. The demands of instruments from customers will be easy to add, and it will support hardware interfaces (real lights, switches, etc). Also Helicopter's gauges will be included.


It has had this up since I discovered it, I really don't know how long this has been up, you could be waiting forever for all we know....so take it with a pinch of salt mate....

There are some FREE...yes free software gauges available....

http://www.flightdecksoft.com/

This is free, if you download it, please donate a few pounds to the owner if you like it! (It makes it worth while, and gives them motivation! )

So just have a search about mate, there's plenty out there!

Cessna 172 / PA28? (VERY COOL PLANE)...Whatever you choose, I am sure you will be fine, I'm always here if your stuck, drop me a PM and I'll give you my email address if your stuck!

Cheers Buddy!

Alex

[JimmyGerrard]

Been on a wild goose chase today, but have finally managed to get my 4th montor set up and working OK, so the fun starts here. I am about to install the Peixsoft GA panel but it appears as though I also need FSUIPC for it to work. I believe there's a basic version that's free? If anyone can direct me to it that'd be great because at present I can only find one I have to pay for. I'm currently running FSX.

In truth I am not really sure what FSUIPC is...will it interfere with my current config (eg. Saitek yoke etc.) and will it require any programming? Kind of going in blind on this one! :shock:

[Geremy Britton]

FSUIPC... stands for something which i've totally forgotten off the top of my head BUT... basically as you know the assignments section within flight simulator where you press the button on your hardware and you assign it to a function. FSUIPC is a program that you open within flight sim and uses this same concept however allows you to do a whole lot more and you can assign buttons, switches to soo many more functions that are not possible in the standard FS Assignments tab. Because Microsoft obviously think you are just going to use FS on your desktop so doesn't expect you to be assigning switches to 'batt press on' etc etc. however FSUIPC is for the simbuilder and covers all these options.

There is also other nifty tricks such as another function to be performed when the button is released and the list goes on.

You can precisely control axis too... so for example on your throttle after a cetain point on the movement loci of your throttle handles you can have a value which corresponds to a position on the throttle quad (Eg Max power - full forward etc)

Peter Dowson developed with software for us and is a member so he would be able to help with in depth enquiries. however basically it is a must have. And i can safely say you can't get very far without it. Not sure of the price nowadays but it has always been cheap and extremely good value for money.

Hope that helps slightly. :)
Alex will be here to help you with the GA aspects soon.

[JimmyGerrard]

Thanks Geremy, maybe I will have to consider putting my hand in my pocket then!

Would buying it interfere with my existing hardware do you know? I am thinking primarily of my goflight gear here as it has its own software that deals with key assignments for the buttons on the units, and I've got all of their modules working just as I'd like them now...would annoy me if they muffed up!

[JimmyGerrard]

Well I bought the FSUIPC and was amazed that I didn't need to do anything with it after installing; the Peix GA Panel software automatically interfaced with it and what's more, as far as I have encountered so far there have been no conflicts with my Goflight stuff, which is still working fine. Very impressed thus far I have to say.

Bit of a noob question this one, but I can't figure it out. I've got the panel working fine on the 4th monitor and interacting with the game so I've got all the instruments working fine. Now I'd like to remove the cockpit view completely and just have open air...ie a view out of the front windscreen. How do I do it? Sat there for twenty minutes playing with settings and the only outside ones are the usual 'Spot', 'Lock Spot' etc. I just want to see out the front window! :)

[Geremy Britton]

Jimmy,

Glad to hear you purchased FSUIPC so fast.. and it realy was a neccesity and also it doesn't interfece with goflight at all. It acts as another run alongside program so you can still assign things through FSAssignments infact there are conflicts sometimes. If you have the same button assigned to a function in FS and FSUIPC so watch out for that if you end up putting the gear down and it comes straight back up again for example.

And for the view. Press 'W' on the keyboard. I think that will sort you out. You may need to press it more then once. I think 2 or 3 times. As it alters the view until eventually nothing. Then press 'W' again to resume to cockpit view.

At least thats how it works with FS9 i'm presuming FSX would be same if that's what your using at the moment.


Best regards

[JimmyGerrard]

Hi guys,

Have been thinking about this over the last couple of weeks and have decided to move my set-up away from a specific aircraft and focus on building a generic pit so that I can fly all manor of props as desired.

I have acquired the Peix panel which is good if not spectacular, and have managed to sort out my PC so that all of the software is running as I'd like it to. The best thing is I'm still getting 50FPS, so I am very happy indeed!

Anyway, I have attached my 'vision' of what it might look like, and I'd like to thank the chap from Sweden whose fantastic design helped me a little bit in coming up with an idea. Lets say it won't win any CAD awards, but paint is the only software I've got and it's still in the 'visionary' stages just now!!

I am mainly stuck on how I will incorporate the throttle quadrant, with the mouse and a keyboard as well. When you're making a complete cockpit I would imagine it's easier, but due to space restrictions I can only really build the captain's side, so I can't connect a 'pedestal' to the middle as somebody else might. Any ideas on that front would be welcome, but ideally I would like it low and to the right for that 'pedestal' feeling when cranking up the throttle!!

I have bought some 18mm MDF panels and will probably - with the help of a family friend- start doing some proper drawings next weekend, so I will provide an update then! :D

[No Longer Active]

mmmmm....

Interesting design you have there!

I could give you a few pointers to consider first.....

So watch this space!

Cheers,

Alex

[JimmyGerrard]

Will await them with eager interest my friend!

Of course after it's built I would finish it off with detail...my 'line drag' Paint finger unfortunately got tired so I left it where it was though!!

Will probably cut some aluminium as some kind of 'fascia' and build a glareshield on there for good measure, which should make it look much more aesthetically pleasing. Because I am sh*te at DIY, my current mantra is make the design as easy to build as is humanly possible, and worry about the rest once I am sure it can stand up straight!

I will also need to build a structure behind it to support my 3 monitors, but I will worry about that later. :D

[No Longer Active]

Couldn't you design the throttle quad to be position under the radio stack instead of to the side of the radio stack, so that you save space, and also I think that it would look better.

I really didn't know that you had an MCP aswell, quite odd for a GA pit, but handy.

The MCP doesn't quite fit in with the pit, in terms of design and ergonomics, the screen, the radio stack and MCP are all completely different widths; so wouldn't line up properly, into any sort of form or shape.

You have gone for pre made modules by goflight, so its a shame you couldn't mount all your switches and knobs into the panel, where as it stands, you have to mount a module into the panel.

But I would do something on the lines of:

http://alexpilot.50g.com/simdesign.jpg

And I wouldnt round the corners of the MIP off either as you waste space, unless you are building a pit like the cessna with gauges in the cessna array!

Anyway, good luck pal!

As always!

Alex

ps. you can always buy a USB track pad that eliminates the need for a mouse, you can then mount the track pad directly to the MIP, which will save you the need to build a flap to hover the mouse as required!

[JimmyGerrard]

That's some nice image embedding you've done there!

My problem is the amount of Goflight gear I've actually got...

1 MCP-PRO
1 EFIS (both from my heavies days!)
1 GFTQ-6 THROTTLE QUADRANT
2 X GF-P8
2 X GF-46
2 X GF-166
1 X GF-RP48
1 X GF-LGT

Honestly, it's going to be a big struggle to get it all in. I was tempted to sell the MCP-PRO and EFIS, but getting the smaller autopilot to replace it with would cost me more than I'd get for the pro selling it second-hand, so it makes sense to keep it for the time-being. It is always plugged in and running when I fly the usual GAs and it doesn't really make any difference to me, so I may as well incorporate it so that when the time comes for me to upsize to twins the sim still fufils its function rather than me needing to change it...that's what I envisioned by generic.

The rest of the modules I continually use, whether they be as Nav/Com, DME, Transponder, ADF, elevator trim, flaps, lights and avionics switches or communication buttons to speak to ATC. I am lucky enough that once I've double-clicked on the FSX icon on my desktop, I do not have to touch the mouse again until I am shutting the computer down...literally not for anything, and that adds to the realism of the game for me.

I have thought about the position of the throttle, and part of the reason I want it low is that I love MEPs like the Meridian and the Seneca where it is lower and more central- really so you can get a good hold of it! That, coupled with the fact that I don't think I could fit it on to the main panel with all the GF stuff, makes me want to maybe consider other options with it. I will have to get my dimensions together I think and have a look at the best plan I think, it's the only way.

It's pretty amazing how ideas change as you go along though!

With regards to the MIP, I think you're right on the position of the MCP and the curved edge. If need be I could make a very very small curve for the look that wouldn't intrude on the space- that's probably what I will do.

Thinking cap still on though!

[No Longer Active]

You sure do have a ton of gear!

Its a real shame that space is not on your side because with all this gear spread out onto a full width MIP you will have a simply awsome generic pit, similar to those you have previously admired.

Not to say that you wont have an awsome MIP, just that it's a shame you have to cram it all into the left seat!

Also GoFlight has the most annoying width ever (8 inch+) which does no favors in a GA rack which is 6 1/4 inch wide (the same as mine), so your MIP now has to become that little bit wider to house that extra bit wide go flight rack, never mind your big 21/22 inch screen!

As for your design, there is nothing wrong with it, just build as you go, if something comes up that wasn't planned, correct it, then carry on, that's how I have done mine!

All I can say is good luck, you seem like a super smart man that can take on the world.

As said, we are all here to help.

But fire away and keep as updated with your project, I can just tell that your's is going to be a real good'n!

All the best,

Alex

[JimmyGerrard]

Ah bless you Alex!

Had a think on this one and I think I have a solution for my throttle issue. What I will probably do is extend the MIP and shorten the lower panel. I will then build a pedestal for the throttle, and the combination of the lower panel and the pedestal will equal the length of the MIP.

I am probably going to elongate the pedestal out so that it can also hold 2 or 3 Goflight modules, which also helps me to resolve my 'space' issue- freeing up the MIP for any future additions I might want to stick in there.

Have attached another very basic paint drawing to try and explain it all a little better! I think it's workable though.