Which yoke to buy...?

[pilotwannabe]

At the moment, I am using a Saitek X52 Pro stick and throttle but want to get myself a decent yoke.
I am considering the Saitek Pro Flight Yoke, Throttle and Rudder Pedals and the CH Eclipse Yoke (built in throttle quad) and CH Rudder Pedals.

I have no cockpit as yet, but am looking at a GA of some description, perhaps a Piper Arrow or Seneca.

Can anyone offer some advice or relate their own experiences to help me decide which would be the best yoke and pedals to buy? Indeed, are there any other affordable control systems (NOT the Elite products then) of which I am unaware?

A slightly late Merry Christmas to everyone...

[PDT 200]

CH or Saitek seem to be the best for the least amt of money. I use a CH yoke that is at least 4 years old. I also use a PFC jetliner flight yoke, $1300 for yoke and pedals. Pricey but very nice.
Regards,
Brian

[JamesVic]

I'm currently flying a desk, meaning I don't have a simpit. I happen to prefer the Saitek Pro Flight Yoke over the CH that I had. Saitek just feels better and the timer is nice if you fly approaches. BTW I don't use the Saitek throttle b/c I have a go flight that I like.

[pilotwannabe]

Thanks to Brian and JamesVic for replies. I've been a bit busy but have been keeping abreast of the posts.
It would seem the answer is Just Buy One! With recommendations for both CH and Saitek products I guess it's down to personal preference rather than one being better than the other.

I'm going to go for the Saitek for a few reasons:

1. It hasn't got throttles sticking out of the top, which I can only see as being annoying after a while
2. I have good experience with Saitek X52 Pro
3. The flat top will make it easier to incorporate into a pit and use a monitor as gauges
4. It's slightly cheaper than the CH
5. The separate throttles will make it easier to convert to twin engine

I'll update with my own experiences if that would help anyone in the same boat (?) as me.

Thanks again for the advice, and a Happy New Year to everyone on the forum. All the best!

[WJH308]

I like the saitek yoke even though I have a CH. Currently building my own yoke that is far beyond anything you can buy in terms of ruggedness.

One word of caution though about saitek. Have you ever taken apart a saitek joystick and looked at the wiring?? It is a horror show waiting to fail. Hopefully they do a better job on their higher end stuff but their cheapies are to be avoided at all costs.

[Skylane]

I have both. I started with the CH a few years ago, it looks and feels "plastic" but the operation is oke. I even think the CH is more precise specialy around the center.
The Saitek has got more functions, is easier to build in, looks better, feels better.
About the wiring..... Yep a pure desaster !!! If are planning on a moving platform you must rewire all the Saitek stuf for with vibration it is about to fail within hours.
So if you are not afraid of a soldering iron, Saitek is the better choise.

Just my two cents worth opinion,
kind regards, Nico

[pilotwannabe]

The Saitek seems to be winning this contest, so I'm happier with my choice now. I was going to order it today, but started wondering (again!) if the CH would be a better choice. That's it decided though - Saitek it is.
I was also going to invest in 2 Saitek throttle quadrants too, so I can change from single to twin engine, and a set of Saitek rudder pedals. which begs the question - are the CH pedals better?
My thinking was that the Saitek look to be more adjustable for foot size, which may make them more comfortable. I noticed, however, that they have (mounting?) holes in them - to screw them down I imagine. Does this mean they'll move all over the carpet when I use them without screwing them down?
The CH pedals are quite heavy (4Kg, I believe) and don't seem to have screw holes in them. Decisions, decisions!
I've no plans to build a motion platform. Well, not yet. It's another one of those "Oooh I've GOT to get one of THOSE!" things when you first see it (a bit like the first time you see a 737 simpit!). I just don't have the money for that sort of thing. Would be nice though :)
I'm certainly not scared of a soldering iron. Electronics has been an on-off (1 0) hobby for about 30 years. Good tip, though, about the wiring Nico & WJH308.

For future reference, what materials are you constructing your yoke from WJH308? Is there a plan or drawings for it that I've missed? It's something I've seen mentioned a few times on the forum but haven't dwelt on it. I may come back to it when I want to increase the realism a bit down the road. I am just starting out after all ;-) I'll cut my teeth on the GA before moving up to the heavies.

Thanks guys!

[WJH308]

The Saitek seems to be winning this contest, so I'm happier with my choice now. I was going to order it today, but started wondering (again!) if the CH would be a better choice. That's it decided though - Saitek it is.
I was also going to invest in 2 Saitek throttle quadrants too, so I can change from single to twin engine, and a set of Saitek rudder pedals. which begs the question - are the CH pedals better?
My thinking was that the Saitek look to be more adjustable for foot size, which may make them more comfortable. I noticed, however, that they have (mounting?) holes in them - to screw them down I imagine. Does this mean they'll move all over the carpet when I use them without screwing them down?
The CH pedals are quite heavy (4Kg, I believe) and don't seem to have screw holes in them. Decisions, decisions!
I've no plans to build a motion platform. Well, not yet. It's another one of those "Oooh I've GOT to get one of THOSE!" things when you first see it (a bit like the first time you see a 737 simpit!). I just don't have the money for that sort of thing. Would be nice though :)
I'm certainly not scared of a soldering iron. Electronics has been an on-off (1 0) hobby for about 30 years. Good tip, though, about the wiring Nico & WJH308.

For future reference, what materials are you constructing your yoke from WJH308? Is there a plan or drawings for it that I've missed? It's something I've seen mentioned a few times on the forum but haven't dwelt on it. I may come back to it when I want to increase the realism a bit down the road. I am just starting out after all ;-) I'll cut my teeth on the GA before moving up to the heavies.

Thanks guys!

I am making it out of Aluminum and steel. I made a post in cockpit updates. I machined the parts on a lathe and mill.

[litebkt]

I am not experienced yet...... I'm still building my new "flight" desk to hold the new monitors for a three monitor setup. But I've got both the Saitek and CH yokes. There isn't a whole lot of difference in them in terms of feel. I like the Saitek better because it looks better, will allow some options for their flight controls if I want, and has a nice profile. But they are both kind of cheasy with what seems to be a lot of slop in the center. My Saitek does have more controls within easy reach. And I give it better marks for that. I haven't used the timer yet, but I do like the clock function. It keeps me from staying up too late flying!

For Christmas, my hubby gave me the new Logitech force feedback flightstick, pedals, and throttle combo pack. I thought of trading them in since the throttle is left handed and I don't intend to use a flight stick. But then I thought.... what the heck. I'll give it all a go and see how they work. I think that I'll see how the throttle and pedals work with the Saitek yoke. The only disadvantage is that the Logitech pedals and throttle plug into the flightstick with non USB connectors and then you plug in the flight stick to the computer via USB. I'll just hide the flightstick out of the way somewhere.

I'm not in to creating a specialized cockpit. I just want to learn about flying and have some fun.

Once I get it all set up and running, I'll have to take some pics and write up my impressions.

Michelle

[WJH308]

I am not experienced yet...... I'm still building my new "flight" desk to hold the new monitors for a three monitor setup. But I've got both the Saitek and CH yokes. There isn't a whole lot of difference in them in terms of feel. I like the Saitek better because it looks better, will allow some options for their flight controls if I want, and has a nice profile. But they are both kind of cheasy with what seems to be a lot of slop in the center. My Saitek does have more controls within easy reach. And I give it better marks for that. I haven't used the timer yet, but I do like the clock function. It keeps me from staying up too late flying!

For Christmas, my hubby gave me the new Logitech force feedback flightstick, pedals, and throttle combo pack. I thought of trading them in since the throttle is left handed and I don't intend to use a flight stick. But then I thought.... what the heck. I'll give it all a go and see how they work. I think that I'll see how the throttle and pedals work with the Saitek yoke. The only disadvantage is that the Logitech pedals and throttle plug into the flightstick with non USB connectors and then you plug in the flight stick to the computer via USB. I'll just hide the flightstick out of the way somewhere.

I'm not in to creating a specialized cockpit. I just want to learn about flying and have some fun.

Once I get it all set up and running, I'll have to take some pics and write up my impressions.

Michelle

The real thing, as far as GA goes, usually has slop in the middle as well. In fact, most Cessna's and pipers I have flown have a boat load of axial play in the yokes as well. My ch yoke has none. One of those things where perception is everything.

[pilotwannabe]

That sure is one mean looking yoke WJH308. I've got more experience working wood than metal, so something with the sturdiness of the steel and aluminium is a dream just now.

I ordered the Saitek yoke and pedals last week with the 3 Horizon England and Wales VFR scenery packs, Alderney VFR, SimPlatesX, and a wee book about British Airband frequencies. They haven't arrived yet, due to the yoke being out of stock, so I'm hoping for the latter half of this week.

I also checked out Skylane's pit - awesome! I see that most of it is off-the-shelf components (Saitek, VRinsight) but it's really effective. That gives me something to aspire to. Well done Nico.

Michelle - it annoys me too the fact that one piece of kit plugs into another using non-USB connecters. My X52 stick plugs into the throttle unit with a DIN plug, and the throttle has a USB plug.

You also mentioned learning to fly. I'd gone through the missions on FSX slowly picking up "flight experience", thinking it was quite easy until I started reading things about ILS NDB DME STARS VOR stuff I'd never heard about (What is it with abbreviations?).
"Obviously", I thought, "there's more to this flying lark than just doing missions". It was about then that I found the Flight School section. (So THAT'S what "Angle of Attack" is!)
This is where I'm at now - back at the beginning with about 200 hours flight time under my belt. Duuuhh!! And this is where the yoke will be most useful. The stick will come back out if I decide I want to try out helicopters again :)

Now, maybe a good book on flight instruction...

[Skylane]

Thank you Pilotwannabee for your kind words. My pit is at a starting point right now.

The "sloppyness around the center" for the yokes is mostly due to settings in FS. Default settings in the control panel set quite some dead-zone in the center for the X and Y axes. Simply reducing the dead zones and raising sensitivity will give a lot better response.

Just pure airodynamics..... there is not much response with minor movement of the controll surfaces in a real (and RC model) plane.

Kind regards, Nico

[WJH308]

I originally got into machining because I wanted to build a live steam locomotive. A project that I am still working on and very passionate about. As I learned to use lathes and mills, I have applied metalworking to everything I build. I enjoy metalworking much more than flying the real thing. In fact it seams I fly the airplane so I have money to go home and play in the workshop for fun. :D

The Saitek or CH yoke will work just fine. The electronics inside of a CH yoke, although better than saitek, still can fail. In fact the electronics inside of my CH yoke DID! I replaced the electronic guts with one of Leo's 10 bit usb joystick controllers. Since I still had 3 axis's left, I even ripped the guts out of the CH pedals and rewired them to plug into the back of my yoke and to take advantage of Leo's board. This free'd up a USB port on my computer, and allows older programs that can only see one joystick the use of the pedals and yoke. I still have to design the base of the L1011 yoke, and figure out where the pots will go and the linkages. All of this is going to have to wait as next week I am driving out to Oakland, California, where my new base is... No workshop out there, hopefully won't last too long.

[WJH308]

Thank you Pilotwannabee for your kind words. My pit is at a starting point right now.

The "sloppyness around the center" for the yokes is mostly due to settings in FS. Default settings in the control panel set quite some dead-zone in the center for the X and Y axes. Simply reducing the dead zones and raising sensitivity will give a lot better response.

Just pure airodynamics..... there is not much response with minor movement of the controll surfaces in a real (and RC model) plane.

Kind regards, Nico

The C210 I fly has very little dead band in roll and pitch. However It is very sensitive to the smallest movements. I can simply apply just enough pressure so you can't even see the yoke move, and the airplane will react accordingly in stable air.

[Skylane]

WJH308, I could not agree with you more... nor would I like to argue with you.

All depends on Reynolds numbers, airfoils, airspeed, mechanic or electronic controlsurface drive, fly by steel- or electic-wire and so on.
But never the less, in the "old days" one used to speak of an elevator .. a moving part of the stabilizer... now a days the whole stabilizer moves plus and minus 30 degrees to goal the right responce of the airplain.... this is getting off topic ;)

[WJH308]

WJH308, I could not agree with you more... nor would I like to argue with you.

All depends on Reynolds numbers, airfoils, airspeed, mechanic or electronic controlsurface drive, fly by steel- or electic-wire and so on.
But never the less, in the "old days" one used to speak of an elevator .. a moving part of the stabilizer... now a days the whole stabilizer moves plus and minus 30 degrees to goal the right responce of the airplain.... this is getting off topic ;)

Now that is a very interesting topic in itself. The C210 has the elevator, the L1011 has the full flying stab, etc. The control "feeling" the pilot feels could either be aerodynamic or simply a representation of a computed force. With the bigger stuff that would be the case. At Miami Dade College, they have two C90 beech sims. Both of them use the control loading computer from a Fokker 100 for controlling the force feedback. In one of the sections of the faa regulations, I think part 25... describes the max control wheel pressures. This is now hazy in my memory, but I want to say 25lbs as being the max force a pilot should feel on the yoke. The technology is quite interesting, but at the same time a little sad on just how far removed the pilot is becoming from his airplane.

[Skylane]

WJH308....Like I said... this is getting off topic... off topic big time;)

[litebkt]

"Obviously", I thought, "there's more to this flying lark than just doing missions". It was about then that I found the Flight School section. (So THAT'S what "Angle of Attack" is!)
This is where I'm at now - back at the beginning with about 200 hours flight time under my belt. Duuuhh!! And this is where the yoke will be most useful. The stick will come back out if I decide I want to try out helicopters again :)

Now, maybe a good book on flight instruction...

I'm pretty sure this is why we hold airline pilots in high esteem ;) After learning to hang glide several years ago, I gained a whole lot more admiration for those who I used to call bus drivers in the sky.

Michelle

[pilotwannabe]

I'm pretty sure this is why we hold airline pilots in high esteem ;) After learning to hang glide several years ago, I gained a whole lot more admiration for those who I used to call bus drivers in the sky.

Michelle

LOL! http://www.mycockpit.org/forums/showthread.php?18961-What-is-your-real-world-profession&p=97819#post97819 :D

[pilotwannabe]

Just an update

My Saitek yoke, throttle & rudders arrived yesterday and I'm currently in the process of trying to get used to them. It's so much different from using a stick!

The rudder pedals do indeed slide all over the carpet, but they come supplied with self-adhesive velcro strips which you can attach to the bottom. Using just the "hooks" part helps it stay in place without moving too much. I haven't attached it yet though. I'm thinking of using a couple of those carpet gripper strips across the underside of the pedals which would save putting the velcro on the bottom or putting screw holes through the carpet and into the floor. This would just be a temporary measure until I got a separate construction underway for the cockpit.

Another thing is I underestimated the size of the yoke. It's quite big to remain attached to the desk in front of my keyboard all the time, and using the PC with it attached is inconvenient to say the least.There is a lot to be said for a dedicated flight sim computer!

It does seem well made (bearing in mind the warnings from Nico (Skylane) and WJH308 about the wiring) and sits quite nicely in the hands, putting elevator and rudder trim within easy reach. There is some "slop" about the centre, but then the X52 I used had this as well to some degree. Perhaps adjusting the nulls in settings would help this, but then again, it isn't a ferrari I'm driving here. (Other luxury sports cars are available). I'm still taking lessons in the Cessna - back to the beginning AGAIN!
I'll just have to be happy with it until I get around to building my own yoke.
The throttles are also sufficient for my purposes at the moment.

What's different from the X52? Well, using throttle with my right hand instead of the left, and the HAT switch with my left thumb instead of my right will take getting used to, as will the trim switches. Just like the stick though, it will come to me.

[Skylane]

Saitek has enhanced their products compared to some years ago.
My Yoke was mechanicly off center and squeeked a little so I took it apart for maitenance.
Comapred to earlier models the wiring is more rigide, still hot-glued to the pcb's and everything Saitek wants it to hold on to. Earlier models came with ultra thin wires (usually all of the same color -white- ).

I found out the bearing bridges were not tightened, causing the squeeking and unprecise handling.
* be carefull tightening the screws from the bearing bridges.... the support collums are quit thin. I used a pair of plyers to prevent the plastic support colums from breaking by torque while tightening the screws*

There is so much grease in the casing....
After greasing all the turning and sliding parts with the left over grease from the casing.... my yoke is better than ever before.

* The grease used by Saitek is quite sticky.... if you use it well, the yoke feels much more like a real one... :D *

Here is what the interior of the yoke looks like,

http://www.revaservice.nl/Pics/techniek/Saitek_yoke_1.jpg

http://www.revaservice.nl/Pics/techniek/Saitek_yoke_2.jpg

http://www.revaservice.nl/Pics/techniek/Saitek_yoke_3.jpg

Kind regards, Nico

[Steve A]

Saitek has enhanced their products compared to some years ago.
My Yoke was mechanicly off center and squeeked a little

This sounds just like my yoke. I heard the earlier versions of the saitek yoke had many problems including ghost key presses and bad calibration. (mine)
Is it easy enough to remove the cover without springs etc giving me a nasty suprise lol

Thanks for posting those pics Nico