Sim Avionics join forces with Flight Deck Solutions!!!

[Westozy]

News Flash!!!
About a month ago I corresponded with Peter Cos from FDS about purchasing a pair of FMCs for my own sim. I asked him questions about interfacing them with Sim Avionics and he asked me to be patient and wait for an impending announcement! Well I've waited patiently and the news has arrived at last. Sim Avionics and Flightdeck Solutions have joined forces and this could only be great news for the building community in general. Two of my clients have been trialing Sim Avionics software and they are reporting that it looks great and works great. One has been testing the 737 suite and the other the 777 suite. No software for the Airbus crew but I believe it is in the planning. It costs about 20% of the selling price of Project Magenta software so this will not be good news for the Project Magenta crew.
See the announcement here - http://www.sim-avionics.com/index.asp

Regards Gwyn

[ian@737ng.co.uk]

:o :o :o
great news for Mark and his team (and PC of course).
SA really is a great 'cost effective' package and many of you i'm sure know it's my 'suite of choice' when i do my upgrade.
all we're waiting for now is the NGX to use it with :o
thanks Gwyn for putting us in the picture.......
regards .... Ian

[fsaviator]

Gents, I'm hoping for some clarity here. I thought I had it, but now I'm a little confused... again. Please bear with me as my endless reading in the forum has come full circle and slapped me in the face, and I tend to get long winded.

I thought I understood the relationship between the various software programs and such but Ian's comment above regarding NGX threw me.

I was under the impression that the (current) PMDG software (which I have) is one solution to running my sim. It provides most of software side for my upcoming hardware panels. the way I understand it, some of the functions are not modeled by PMDG, particularly in the aircraft systems category. This was due to PMDG not releasing an SDK, thus third-party add-ons couldn't easily be provided.

I further understood that software such as PM, was a complete replacement of the avionics and systems software. In other words, instead of using the PMDG 737, I could use the ac model, but PM to power all my systems (depending on the purchased package from PM).

I thought software such as Sim-Avionics were also complete replacements, while software such as ProSIM modeled certain aspects.

Finally, SIOC (or FDS's software - can't remember the name) was just the interface to the hardware.

Ian... I know you were looking at Sim Avionics as an upgrade. I assumed it was FROM PMDG... your mention of NGX makes me think it is an upgrade WITH PMDG NGX.... One doesn't replace the other?

Could anyone enlighten me, and thanks all for sticking through this to the end:)

Warren

[RalphW]

:o :o :o
great news for Mark and his team (and PC of course).
SA really is a great 'cost effective' package and many of you i'm sure know it's my 'suite of choice' when i do my upgrade.
all we're waiting for now is the NGX to use it with :o
thanks Gwyn for putting us in the picture.......
regards .... Ian

Mark and the SA team are using my Sim for a lot of 737 integration testing. 737 Overhead is now patched using FDS SYS boards. You could do your upgrade now Ian ;-)

Having been a PM / FDT user in the past I have to say that I find the combination of SA / FDS works better for me.

Cheers
Ralph

[RalphW]

I must change my avatar. Here's the latest photo of my Sim

http://premium1.uploadit.org/speedbird17/NewSim/WRW_4325.JPG

[steveeverson]

Nice pic Ralph, getting quite hard to tell its not a real aircraft from that pic :)

[Sean Nixon]

Gents, I'm hoping for some clarity here. I thought I had it, but now I'm a little confused... again. Please bear with me as my endless reading in the forum has come full circle and slapped me in the face, and I tend to get long winded.

I thought I understood the relationship between the various software programs and such but Ian's comment above regarding NGX threw me.

I was under the impression that the (current) PMDG software (which I have) is one solution to running my sim. It provides most of software side for my upcoming hardware panels. the way I understand it, some of the functions are not modeled by PMDG, particularly in the aircraft systems category. This was due to PMDG not releasing an SDK, thus third-party add-ons couldn't easily be provided.

I further understood that software such as PM, was a complete replacement of the avionics and systems software. In other words, instead of using the PMDG 737, I could use the ac model, but PM to power all my systems (depending on the purchased package from PM).

I thought software such as Sim-Avionics were also complete replacements, while software such as ProSIM modeled certain aspects.

Finally, SIOC (or FDS's software - can't remember the name) was just the interface to the hardware.

Ian... I know you were looking at Sim Avionics as an upgrade. I assumed it was FROM PMDG... your mention of NGX makes me think it is an upgrade WITH PMDG NGX.... One doesn't replace the other?

Could anyone enlighten me, and thanks all for sticking through this to the end:)

Warren

I thought the same.

Maybe he's just desperate to get to FSX too?

[fsaviator]

I thought the same.

Maybe he's just desperate to get to FSX too?

I can't keep up:?

The worst part is I'm 6,000 miles from any of my sim setup and can't play and experiment. Two weeks....kiss the wife , hug the kids, pet the dog and lock myself in my garage!:)

[ian@737ng.co.uk]

hello chaps..........
warren, sorry about any 'mis-representation' or if i confused you.
here's the deal..... right now, i have a pretty well fully functioning cockpit using the PMDG in FS9 which is working 100% thru hardware, smoke/mirrors and cheating :o obviously, we all want to move forward and here's my plan. i have been waiting for the NGX to appear and it looks like it's Coming Soon (at last).
so, i have the quad cores built and running FSX ready to take the NGX. i will use SA as my instrument package (because it supports my CPFlight & Engravity Hardware) and then i was planning on seeing what else i can do with the NGX before stripping out the old system and replacing it with the new one. i don't see the point in pulling down something that's working until i have the new system operational on the workbench. you never know, PMDG just might wake up to the fact that Cockpit Builders/Hardware manufacturers want the SDK. it's in their interests really as we get more sophisticated in our approach and will of course influence the purchasing decision of many.

and for Ralph, would be interested in what Sys boards you are using so i can do some homework :o

Rgds to all ..... Ian

[fsaviator]

Thanks Ian, now I understand.

I've decided to hold off on FSX. It took a long time and many upgrades and tweaks to get my system to run FS9 the way I wanted it. Now that it does, I'm sticking with it (for now) and sinking all my discretionary funds into the 737 setup.

I think I'll stick with the PMDG version I have now, and use your tips and tricks to get it max use of the panels. I have been looking at the SA stuff, but think I'll try out the ProSim.

Thanks for all your help.

Warren

[my737sim]

What advantages (Other then cost...) will Sim-Avionics have over Project Magenta? I have the full PM suite (except the instructor station, which instead I bought Luis Gordo's fabulous IS software) and am wondering what I would get by switching? I mean, my interfaceit card from FDS works fine with PM. Peter just announced new sys cards on his forums as well. So what would someone like myself gain out of this?

(What I CAN see, is Peter being able to now not only sell full trainers from the hardware side, but not requiring any software / pm setup anymore. Pop in a disk, run installers, and everything is configured and ready to go with his hardware, so SMART move there)

But will it offer anything new for existing pm customers / fds users?

Matt
www.my737sim.com

[tomenglish2000]

Wow Ralph! Just had to say that your sim looks absolutely amazing. Hope you can do Simfest some time in the future again. It was lots of fun. Tom.

[Melnato]

@ Matt...

Ive quietly been converting over from PM to Sim-A.

I'm not going to start a War over this, but I am extremely happy with the move ;)
Sim-A is MUCH more advanced, realistic MCP behaviour, realisitc CDU, Systems modelling is better too.
Theres a heap more I can talk about, but I dont want to sound like an infomercial.
Dowload the DEMO and youll see what I mean.

Its not perfect yet (close), but at least the Sim-A team listens and improves the product all the time.

I know its hard to fork out more money, but I doubt anyone will regret it.

Nat

[my737sim]

Always good information from you Nat. (The 10.4 LCD from ebay rocked, thanks again on that one)

Money's not the issue. If it were, I would not be in this hobby as I'm sure you know heh. :)

My only concern is compatibility. Lots of stuff that is wired for PM. (Like my GoFlight MCP... still waiting for 737 demand to die on the new fds mcp so I can order one heh) And am just curious how it'd all work out.

Will give it a try!

Matt
www.my737sim.com


@ Matt...

Ive quietly been converting over from PM to Sim-A.

I'm not going to start a War over this, but I am extremely happy with the move ;)
Sim-A is MUCH more advanced, realistic MCP behaviour, realisitc CDU, Systems modelling is better too.
Theres a heap more I can talk about, but I dont want to sound like an infomercial.
Dowload the DEMO and youll see what I mean.

Its not perfect yet (close), but at least the Sim-A team listens and improves the product all the time.

I know its hard to fork out more money, but I doubt anyone will regret it.

Nat

[Sean Nixon]

It's been a few months since I played with any demos, be it PM, S-A or FDS, but when running all three side by side, PM definately had the edge VISUALLY. Even PMDG's MCP/ND looked better than the others. The visuals were enough to put me off buying one of the PM alternatives at that time. It's difficult to assess any program properly in a 10-20 minute evaluation period, so nigh on impossible to test systems, etc, but as first impressions go, I wasn't overly impressed. I'm still deciding which software to run with. If I'm honest, I'd like PM, but it's vastly overpriced (compared to the alternatives), I know it's not perfect, and support is rubbish for home builders. I don't even think they are interested in us, hence the high price, they are pricing us out.

I notice the BUY NOW page at Sim-Avionics takes you directly to the FDS homepage. Is this intentional? No pricing details at either site, and no way of buying the software at the moment!

Bad move (for us) in my opinion if they are linking up that close with FDS, as my impressions of FDS are similar to PM, that is they appear to have moved on to bigger fish (more money) and are not too interested in the home/consumer market any more.

[RalphW]

It's been a few months since I played with any demos, be it PM, S-A or FDS, but when running all three side by side, PM definately had the edge VISUALLY.

Hi Sean

Interesting. I moved from the full PM suite to SA primarily because, in my rig, SA is visually better than PM, runs smoother than PM and is easier to configure due to its simple server/client architecture.

It wasn't easy though, putting over £1000 worth of PM software on the shelf!

Regards

[Westozy]

I have just built a MIP for member Wes Hollet and he is trialing Sim Avionics B737. Wes will be assisting me when I convert my sim. Ken Brand is doing the same for the SA B777 software, I am building his MIP so I will produce a full report for the membership soon on our findings!

Cheers, Gwyn

[brynjames]

Bad news in a posting over on the sim-avionics forum. The poster reports that he has received pricing from Peter Cos, and in his words

"What a mess..for the same software you have to pay four times of the original !"

If this means what I think it means, that is really bad news for the community. In the past there were warnings that the introductory pricing might not last (and there was once a warning that it would finish by a certain month, although nothing happened) but there was no warning in this case of such a big jump.

Very unfortunate for those who were testing prior to making the purchase.

There is as yet no comment at all from Mark on their forum.

Anyone got any other information?

--
Bryn

[fsaviator]

I really hope what you're saying isn't the case, Bryn. I'm in the market now, and was looking at going with S-A based on the positive words about the company, and the price.

I guess we'll see...

[Kennair]

Yep nearly tripled in price, just got a list. SA's pricing was alwasy listed as "Introductory" though and its still cheaper than PM. Not sure about the cost of further updates however.

Ken.

[capetonian]

What a pity.

Not to put Peter Cos or FDS down.... but this really is a bad move and I think that they will lode a lot of business from the homebuilder like us.

But.... keep your eyes and ears peeled, .. you never know when another developer might launch an exciting new product ;)

[Kennair]

Well you now get both versions (777/737) and there's no annual updates, plus the assurity of the software development, so just a few points to soften the blow. It does prove the SA software is really worth it though as Peter wouldn't be putting his name to it if it was dodgy.

Ken.

[my737sim]

Well you now get both versions (777/737) and there's no annual updates, plus the assurity of the software development, so just a few points to soften the blow. It does prove the SA software is really worth it though as Peter wouldn't be putting his name to it if it was dodgy.

Ken.

Also this software supports multi-monitor, requires less computers to run. (One, maybe two) A good package IMHO.

Matt

[brynjames]

Well you now get both versions (777/737) and there's no annual updates,

Ken.

This isn't exactly what Mark told existing users over at the sim-avionics forum. They were told that the existing annual charge would continue.

Too bad that the many folks who were trialling the demo and were maybe about to make the purchase were not given a last chance to buy at the original price, instead of the price hike being imposed without any warning.

--
Bryn

[johnwayne]

It is what it is , it made sense for FDS to do it , so the game has changed. The question is , " Is SA worth its new price ? " . Im just getting around to selecting software for my simulator and trying to make a decision based on :

1. Fidelity to real aircraft system
2. Speed / Hardware performance
3. Ease of Installation / setup when mainstream ( e.g Engravity / FDS ) is used.
4. Support / Elimination of bugs
5. Price

I gather the price change is to a bitter pill for those who didnt get the introductory pricing in time but now as the price is around about the project Magenta software Im researching the areas that SA is better and worse and trying to make a decision between the two. In price they are closely matched , is the reality that they are closely matched. If you have used both , which is better and why ? One of the things that has me concerned with PM is im gathering its very tricky to set up and get working whereas I have searched for information on SA and cant find much if anything. Price is the last point im considering but obviously a factor.

[my737sim]

It is what it is , it made sense for FDS to do it , so the game has changed. The question is , " Is SA worth its new price ? " . Im just getting around to selecting software for my simulator and trying to make a decision based on :

1. Fidelity to real aircraft system
2. Speed / Hardware performance
3. Ease of Installation / setup when mainstream ( e.g Engravity / FDS ) is used.
4. Support / Elimination of bugs
5. Price

I gather the price change is to a bitter pill for those who didnt get the introductory pricing in time but now as the price is around about the project Magenta software Im researching the areas that SA is better and worse and trying to make a decision between the two. In price they are closely matched , is the reality that they are closely matched. If you have used both , which is better and why ? One of the things that has me concerned with PM is im gathering its very tricky to set up and get working whereas I have searched for information on SA and cant find much if anything. Price is the last point im considering but obviously a factor.

I can't tell you which one, if either, are better. Here's what I will tell you based on my years of PM use, and my few days of SimA use in the demo.

1. Sim-A has a better flight model. I've used PM for years... and it wasn't until I tried Sim-A's demo the other day did I realize that even simple flight characteristics like, takeoff, were vast more realistic in SimA then in PM.

2. My personal results showed that PM was faster then Sim-A. NOW... I've been told by a few people they got great results running Sim-A. Sim-A uses a server software that runs on a PC. (any, fs's pc, another pc, whatever you want) and then an avionics software. This avionics software, for me, is a window that is stretched across the entire set of 3 screens. From the cap pfd all the way to the fo's nd. In the software you checkmark which "pieces" you want. cap pfd, check it, on, cap nd, check it on, clock? check it on. Whatever you want. So when this stretched window comes up, you place each piece within the large window where you want it. So, why is my large avionics only getting 7 fps? Well, I think it's video cards. In PM's case, I'm running 3 "pfds" (Which is the PM glass cockpit software) and each pfd window fits on to a particular LCD. PM tech support does not offer "multi monitor" support, but you can do it. It is tricky. Just moving your displays around in the display settings is enough for your upper engine to end up on the captains pfd side, etc. But, if you DO get it working, it's pretty smooth. So, in my video card patchwork (An 8400 GS running cap pfd/nd and fo pfd/nd and a 210 gs running the upper engine) the PM solution works because each LCD has it's own window. In the Sim-A solution, I have a large 3000 something pixel window stretched across 3 lcd's, IE, two video cards, that are different, with different memory timings, different bus speeds, etc. In the world of computers, that's a no no heh. SO... I "believe" that if I get two identical (single gpu) video cards, that SIm-A will run smoothly for me. I have yet to do that, as it's more money I do have to put out, to test a demo. I probably will though.

3. Installation was very simple in both for me. Setup takes tweaking in PM to get everything where you want it, and to "stay" there. For Sim-A it's just one window and the server (in the demo) so setup was much easier.

4. I have not required real support yet from Sim-A. I had a few questions that Peter said shoot his way, and he was able to provide all the pre-purchase questions I had. PM support has been good, I've always got a timely response from Enrico, Thomas or Jonathan. Usually my questions were about trying to resolve things they don't offer support for, IE, multi monitor. But even in that case, they were willing to try, with me. Both softwares get updated over time, and the only bug I've had in PM was resolved once I updated it to a newer version.

Another thing I like about Sim-A is in the server app you can customize the heck out of it. Try the demos of both products and chose which one works for you. Overall I think both softwares are good. They are definitely a good thing to have for the sim community! Check out both, only you can tell you, what works best for you.

Matt
www.my737sim.com

[Sean Nixon]

Sim-A has a better flight model. I've used PM for years... and it wasn't until I tried Sim-A's demo the other day did I realize that even simple flight characteristics like, takeoff, were vast more realistic in SimA then in PM. www.my737sim.com

This reminds me of a question that's been on my mind for a while. How can one tell if one flight model is better than another?

[nanticokerailroad]

Just got the price list. If you want "everything" that the software offers it's $1700.00 That's just crazy!

I just downloaded OGS version of 737 and it's FREE!!!! It's pretty nice and has a lot of functions.

[brynjames]

Just got the price list. If you want "everything" that the software offers it's $1700.00 That's just crazy!
.

Well, I am still waiting for a price quote after requesting on 9 March and again on 11 March. Is this the famed FDS service??

--
Bryn

[my737sim]

Just got the price list. If you want "everything" that the software offers it's $1700.00 That's just crazy!

I just downloaded OGS version of 737 and it's FREE!!!! It's pretty nice and has a lot of functions.

Peter had mentioned to me that if you buy a lesser version, then you can upgrade for the difference later. IE, you can buy the non FO flavor.. and then later spend only the remainder to get the rest of it. So it gives you some ability to start small and work your way up.

[Kennair]

2. My personal results showed that PM was faster then Sim-A. NOW... I've been told by a few people they got great results running Sim-A. Sim-A uses a server software that runs on a PC. (any, fs's pc, another pc, whatever you want) and then an avionics software. This avionics software, for me, is a window that is stretched across the entire set of 3 screens. From the cap pfd all the way to the fo's nd. In the software you checkmark which "pieces" you want. cap pfd, check it, on, cap nd, check it on, clock? check it on. Whatever you want. So when this stretched window comes up, you place each piece within the large window where you want it. So, why is my large avionics only getting 7 fps? Well, I think it's video cards. In PM's case, I'm running 3 "pfds" (Which is the PM glass cockpit software) and each pfd window fits on to a particular LCD. PM tech support does not offer "multi monitor" support, but you can do it. It is tricky. Just moving your displays around in the display settings is enough for your upper engine to end up on the captains pfd side, etc. But, if you DO get it working, it's pretty smooth. So, in my video card patchwork (An 8400 GS running cap pfd/nd and fo pfd/nd and a 210 gs running the upper engine) the PM solution works because each LCD has it's own window. In the Sim-A solution, I have a large 3000 something pixel window stretched across 3 lcd's, IE, two video cards, that are different, with different memory timings, different bus speeds, etc. In the world of computers, that's a no no heh. SO... I "believe" that if I get two identical (single gpu) video cards, that SIm-A will run smoothly for me. I have yet to do that, as it's more money I do have to put out, to test a demo. I probably will though.

Matt
www.my737sim.com

Hi Matt,

You mention that you stretch a single wide window to contain all your panels, perhaps this is the cause of your low frame rates? I open separate instances (3 in fact) of "Avionics.exe" that contain the PFD/ND, EICAS/Standby, & MFD respectively. Each can be cofigured, dragged and resized to your liking then saved. When opened next time they jump to their respective screens as before. In this manner I'm getting 30+ FPS out of each window and all runs beautfully. All this using the Demo I might add as I was one of the unlucky ones who procrastinated that little be too long :( Sim-A makes use of multimonitors out of the box, whereas PM doesn't officially support it preferring a separate machine for each panel. This is where SIM-A will kill them because it works not only to mulitiple screens but all in one box if you really want to push it.

In fact I had the whole system running on the FS machine to 4 screens via 2 (different) video cards. If it can run this well on one PC then a single network PC (which is what i recommend) will have it all running sweet. There was some stuttering on both FS and Sim-A under this setup but eminently flyable in a setup that you would have to agree was extreme. Run Sim-A on one PC and FS on another and your home and hosed. You can't necessarily do that with PM.

Your 8400GS and the 210 will run the graphics no problem so these aren't the bottle neck. None of my cards are matched and it doesn't hinder me at all. My FS PC is quite moderate being a Quad Q6600 with 4gb RAM. I have Sim-A also running networked on an old AMD 3Ghz and 2gb RAM with an AGP 6400 graphics card to 2 screens, again with separate instances of Avionics.exe and getting great frame rates on the PFD/ND & EICAS/Stby. I then add the MFD along with CDU and MCP to my laptop to another screen. Under this scenario FS and Sim-A panels runs smooth as.

Running separate instances of avionics.exe also minimizes the problem of moving panels around as you are dealing with lesser panels per window. You can hit the 'B' key to get rid of borders if you want.

As for the pricing, Sim-A is still quite a bit cheaper than PM. I have both price lists from FDS and PM and the full Sim-A suite will cost you $1700 CAD while the comparable PM suite will set you back $2250 CAD (converted from Euros). When you combine that with the fact that Sim-A can utilize multi-monitors much more effectively and run on less machins there's no comparison. Minimize your setup by just two machines and you've paid for Sim-A! Or run Sim-A and FS together on the one machine! Now you definetily can't do that with PM.

Having said this I have no affiliation with either Sim-Avionics or PM, I'm just a curious user trying to get the best deal possible. I'm also kicking myself that I didn't jump in and buy Sim-A two weeks ago!!

Ken.

[my737sim]

Hmm, what I read in the demo was that you could only run one avionics window. How are you getting multiple avionics open and configured? Did you copy the avionics exe and it's config files to separate folders?

Yes I agree completely, the issue is stretching it across screens.

Hmm let me see if I can get multiple avionics windows open.

Matt

[Kennair]

Hi Matt,

Copy a new Avionics folder for each instances you require within the Sim Avionics folder and call it "Avionics2,3,4 etc" You don't need to copy the config or display.ini files as these will be re-created the first time you start it. Create a shortcut to each new Avionics.exe and re- title to an appropriate name. I have 3 - "PFD_ND", "EICAS" & "MFD". Open and configure your selected panels in each of these windows and drag to your required monitor then press 'S' to save the config. Next time you fire up the app it'll open to the window you configured it too.

See if that helps your framerates.

Ken.

[my737sim]

Thanks for your info on that Ken. Gave it a shot, frames are great!

Now, I'm trying to figure out quality. Looks bad on my displays. I set the display smoothing to 60 in the server. Text is very broken up. Wonder if it's the font. I'm in Vista 64 bit. Not sure. I uploaded a photo at: http://www.my737sim.com/photo.jpg

Peter is asking about it as well, said his does not look like that.

[Kennair]

Yeah not sure. The fonts were pretty jaggered on my tests when running the whole shebang on a single PC but you would expect that. When I run the two panels (PFD/ND & EISCAS) on my low end network PC fonts are gorgeous so I don't think its the system specs or video. BTW my main FS PC (which I test ran everything on) is Windows7 64bit, while my network PC is XP 32. Maybe its a windows font issue? I'm at work at the moment so can't do any more tests. I'd rather have smooth running displays and slightly jaggered fonts than vica- versa though. Also I had display smoothing at the default level of 20.

You don't happen to have two screens running via a VGA splitter do you?

Ken.

[my737sim]

Yeah not sure. The fonts were pretty jaggered on my tests when running the whole shebang on a single PC but you would expect that. When I run the two panels (PFD/ND & EISCAS) on my low end network PC fonts are gorgeous so I don't think its the system specs or video. BTW my main FS PC (which I test ran everything on) is Windows7 64bit, while my network PC is XP 32. Maybe its a windows font issue? I'm at work at the moment so can't do any more tests. I'd rather have smooth running displays and slightly jaggered fonts than vica- versa though. Also I had display smoothing at the default level of 20.

You don't happen to have two screens running via a VGA splitter do you?

Ken.

Have 3 video cards, 9800GT is running FSX (projector) while 8400 GS is running cap/fo pdf nd and 210 is running eicas.

http://www.my737sim.com/?page_id=841

I run a boat load on the fsx pc and get great frames and quality with pm.

I think it's a font issue, or something to that likes. This font is horribly jagged on my end. I'll do some tests. PM looks fantastic (with font quality set to high in PM)

Each screen goes into it's own connector on the cards. IE, I'm not doing dual link DVI. These screens are all vga, while the cards are DVI, so I have to use dvi to vga adapters. Its not those, if it was, PM or anything else would look bad, which they don't.

Am going to try a different font in the config files.

Matt

[Kennair]

Whew! impressive setup Matt, well done.

Yeah I've heard others comment on the incredible font quality of PM, its obviously one of its many strengths. I also have a mixture of VGA and DVI outputs using adaptors where necessary and doesn't seem to make much difference. Using a VGA splitter does degrade quality on both screens however which is why I asked.

Let me know how you go.

Ken.

[nanticokerailroad]

Peter had mentioned to me that if you buy a lesser version, then you can upgrade for the difference later. IE, you can buy the non FO flavor.. and then later spend only the remainder to get the rest of it. So it gives you some ability to start small and work your way up.

The stripped down version is still $1000.00
All you get is the Captains Displays. If you try and access anything else they claim the program will shut down.

[nanticokerailroad]

Hi Matt,

You mention that you stretch a single wide window to contain all your panels, perhaps this is the cause of your low frame rates? I open separate instances (3 in fact) of "Avionics.exe" that contain the PFD/ND, EICAS/Standby, & MFD respectively. Each can be cofigured, dragged and resized to your liking then saved. When opened next time they jump to their respective screens as before. In this manner I'm getting 30+ FPS out of each window and all runs beautfully. All this using the Demo I might add as I was one of the unlucky ones who procrastinated that little be too long :( Sim-A makes use of multimonitors out of the box, whereas PM doesn't officially support it preferring a separate machine for each panel. This is where SIM-A will kill them because it works not only to mulitiple screens but all in one box if you really want to push it.

In fact I had the whole system running on the FS machine to 4 screens via 2 (different) video cards. If it can run this well on one PC then a single network PC (which is what i recommend) will have it all running sweet. There was some stuttering on both FS and Sim-A under this setup but eminently flyable in a setup that you would have to agree was extreme. Run Sim-A on one PC and FS on another and your home and hosed. You can't necessarily do that with PM.

Your 8400GS and the 210 will run the graphics no problem so these aren't the bottle neck. None of my cards are matched and it doesn't hinder me at all. My FS PC is quite moderate being a Quad Q6600 with 4gb RAM. I have Sim-A also running networked on an old AMD 3Ghz and 2gb RAM with an AGP 6400 graphics card to 2 screens, again with separate instances of Avionics.exe and getting great frame rates on the PFD/ND & EICAS/Stby. I then add the MFD along with CDU and MCP to my laptop to another screen. Under this scenario FS and Sim-A panels runs smooth as.

Running separate instances of avionics.exe also minimizes the problem of moving panels around as you are dealing with lesser panels per window. You can hit the 'B' key to get rid of borders if you want.

As for the pricing, Sim-A is still quite a bit cheaper than PM. I have both price lists from FDS and PM and the full Sim-A suite will cost you $1700 CAD while the comparable PM suite will set you back $2250 CAD (converted from Euros). When you combine that with the fact that Sim-A can utilize multi-monitors much more effectively and run on less machins there's no comparison. Minimize your setup by just two machines and you've paid for Sim-A! Or run Sim-A and FS together on the one machine! Now you definetily can't do that with PM.

Having said this I have no affiliation with either Sim-Avionics or PM, I'm just a curious user trying to get the best deal possible. I'm also kicking myself that I didn't jump in and buy Sim-A two weeks ago!!

Ken.

I just think the price point is going to be out of range for a lot of home simmers. The average user isn't going to be able to shell out that kind of cash for a single piece of software. 1000 for commercial use fine, but for a home user..... That's just Greed on the side of FDS wanting to line their pockets. I'm a commercial pilot myself and I refuse to spend that kind of money on software, no matter how good it is. I'll make due with a cheaper version for now. I would rather spend 1700.00 on a nice piece of hardware like Revolution Simproducts throttle quadrant. Everyone has to decide for themselves if it's money well spent. Happy Simming everyone.

[my737sim]

I would rather spend 1700.00 on a nice piece of hardware like Revolution Simproducts throttle quadrant. Everyone has to decide for themselves if it's money well spent. Happy Simming everyone.

I love my Revolution Throttle!

http://www.my737sim.com/?cat=125

Well, I bought the full PM suite of software... and the Sim-A software is cheaper then that heh. Everyone is going to make up their mind what they want to use.

Regardless, this hobby is expensive!!

Counting pennies...

Matt
www.my737sim.com

[my737sim]

Also note that it looks like PM teamed up with PMFlight

http://www.mycockpit.org/forums/content.php/145-News-Release-Project-Magenta-pmFlight

SO... you have hardware FDS teams up with software Sim Avionics, and software PM team up with hardware pmFlight.

Interesting!

Matt

[Matt Olieman]

Also note that it looks like PM teamed up with PMFlight

http://www.mycockpit.org/forums/content.php/145-News-Release-Project-Magenta-pmFlight

SO... you have hardware FDS teams up with software Sim Avionics, and software PM team up with hardware pmFlight.

Interesting!

Matt

pmFlight is ProjectMagenta Same company, this is their Flight Simulator division. Using their own software, the same as being sold to us.

Matt Olieman

[johnwayne]

pmFlight is ProjectMagenta Same company, this is their Flight Simulator division. Using their own software, the same as being sold to us.

Matt Olieman

According to PMflight the software in their own sims is based on what is available to the public but is in fact highly customised with many additions.

[Matt Olieman]

According to PMflight the software in their own sims is based on what is available to the public but is in fact highly customised with many additions.

I think you present a valid point and yes I'm aware what it says, but I'm telling you, the software is the same which is available to you and me, the same software package PM is selling to the public. I hope that clarifies that statement.

I don't know anything about FDS/Sim Avionics software and I will not argue which one is the better. I don't know. But if I have facts contrary to what I read here I will comment.

I think it's wonderful to have a choice of products!!!!!

[my737sim]

I think you present a valid point and yes I'm aware what it says, but I'm telling you, the software is the same which is available to you and me, the same software package PM is selling to the public. I hope that clarifies that statement.

I don't know anything about FDS/Sim Avionics software and I will not argue which one is the better. I don't know. But if I have facts contrary to what I read here I will comment.

I think it's wonderful to have a choice of products!!!!!

Indeed, more choice means more options for everyone. Its really great to see how much is available now. X-plane is doing well. Too bad Aces was canned, but I believe some of the former employees formed their own company. (Although I have not heard any update on that in months)

Matt

[johnwayne]

Thanks Matt , Im trying to decide between the 2 packages at the moment. It seems there is a lot of information good and bad available from many sources on PM and lesser so on SIMA , this of course is natural as SIMA has a much lower user base and little to none in the professional arena which could serve as a flagship. I can only though relay what was stated to me by PM themselves which is that there are additions in their own package based on custom requirements and it took PM software engineers months of work to configure the PMflight Sims. I was left with the impression that PM was very hard to install and hard to configure to the extent that It might be better to pay high fees to have them do it for me. What information I have gathered on SIMA has been on the whole positive , especially in installation and configuration although if this results in a " dumbed down " aircraft I dont know. I am still trying the demo of both.

[a340-th]

Hi Johnwayne,

I just saw this and as I look at your lcoation, it seems you are not so far away from me.... at least relatively compared to the other members <G>, so maybe we might have a chance to exchange views on this more closely.

I will not postulate my personal views about PM here as this is obviously not desired. Suffice it to say that I have been a user of PM from the very first days and that I own 3 (three) more or less complete licenses of PM - 2 for B and one for A. Of which the A one is - of course - in use in my A340 project. If someone came along with some longer term perspective and credible promise to develop further for an airbus application I would switch without a second thought.

PM me if you want further information or assistance.

Erhard in Thailand

[tote_320]

The software is around 1700 USD now :mad:

How was it before FDS messed-up with Sim-A ?

[tote_320]

Hahaha kind off Gwyn but no one would figured a raise of more than 200% this is just crazy.

FDS come on give us a break

[Schraddel]

This IS crazy. I am very angry and disapointed about that new pricing too.
Tested SA with my brand new OC MCP and EFIS for 2 weeks and programmed SIOC till all units work and then they change the price from one day to another. Too much for me now.
And the question for me is "for what ?"
1400 € and more for a (for this high price) very small program which is still buggy here and there.
I.e. If I would buy for whatever hardware for that price and would find a malfunction or defect I would
claim and ask for my money.
Sitting here with my new hardware nearly 2000 € and wonder what to do now. The good price of SA was the impulse for me to start cockpit building. Never think about a price-change that high.
I think my last option is PMDG and FSXpand now.
So thumbs down for that kind of extortion. :x

[brynjames]

I still haven't had a quote from FDS despite 2 requests, but I have a general idea of the situation from the other posters here.

Of course, any supplier can take a decision to set their price to what they think the market will bear, so it's my problem if I don't like their decision :)

There has to be a question mark over whether FDS/SA made the right decision in this case. They could have announced a final chance to buy at the old price: this could have brought in a number of new users (or those like me who had been testing demo's for some months and were ready to jump) - which in return would have increased the number of potential customers for FDS harware (which must have been the reason FDS chose to team up with SA in the first place). Now instead unfortunately, many of the potential buyers may not buy the product at any price, as they feel they have been let down. I seem to remember PM started cheap, but gradually got more expensive, but with plenty of warning.

Just for the record, I had the pleasure of meeting the two very nice guys who are SA at the SimFest round the world fundraiser last year. They both had "real "jobs, wrote the SA software in their spare time, and had their home built simulator in Dad's garage. So we aren't talking SA Group Megacorp here :)

Still, I'm very sorry the way things have turned out. Bad decision by someone.

--
Bryn

[Schraddel]

Just for the record, I had the pleasure of meeting the two very nice guys who are SA at the SimFest round the world fundraiser last year. They both had "real "jobs, wrote the SA software in their spare time, and had their home built simulator in Dad's garage. So we aren't talking SA Group Megacorp here :)

Still, I'm very sorry the way things have turned out. Bad decision by someone.

--
Bryn

Bryn,
just to clarify my thoughts..."give credit where credit is due" (thanks to LEO.org :) they did a great job in writing this software. And I think its ok to sell their product to a company. I think we all would do the same if we have the chance. Its FDS who make the new prices.

--
Kai

[johnwayne]

I still haven't had a quote from FDS despite 2 requests, but I have a general idea of the situation from the other posters here.


--
Bryn


Bryn,

According to FDS Blog the Sim Avionics original guys are now working full time and have delegated the sales , marketing and primary support to FDS. That is to say in this current economic climate they gave up their secure job to work full time on the software . This could lead to major development in this package if its done correctly. FDS in principal have a good product line but if the service is poor it takes a lot of the appeal away , the last thing anybody at this price level is into is having to "keep trying" to spend money with a company , that part at least should be very easy. I suppose a certain amount of latitude has to be cut because its a new arrangement though but as you say its frustrating not getting your emails answered. I am still waiting to see what comes of the FDS/Sim Avionics relationship , hopefully something happens soon so I can make an informed decision between both companies.

[Sean Nixon]

... the Sim A original guys are now working full time...

That is to say in this current economic climate they gave up their secure job to work full time on the software.

That's a bold step indeed!

[brynjames]

Thanks for the heads-up to the FDS blog: it makes interesting reading, and explains a bit more about the thinking behind the moves.

Not that I agree with his conclusions of course :)

Anyway, I wish the SA guys well in their new venture - even HP started in a garage.

--
Bryn

[Westozy]

Hi all,
I thought I should set the record straight so to speak as there is now quite a lot of conjecture and speculation about the merger of Flightdeck Solutions and Sim Avionics. All this speculation leads to feeding the rumour mill and all of a sudden there are a dozen theories going around about why it happened! I feel the need to speak in defense of a fellow vendor! These are my own views as a vendor and not the views of the MyCockpit management!!

Many of us, including myself have been quite disappointed by the news of the price increase of Sim-Avionics, we have missed the chance to purchase it at the introductory price. It was available for quite a while and we have all had our chance to purchase it cheaply so our complaints will achieve nothing and I ask the membership to have a think about what can be achieved by attacking the vendors!

I have been in contact with Peter Cos and we have been discussing the merger. Peter does follow our forum threads and he is very well aware of all the rumours and disappointment amongst the members who want to buy SA. The basic facts are - Peter sincerely believes Mark has got a great product in Sim-Avionics and it is much better than it's competitor's products. He has "reached out" to elevate and further develop the product with Mark. If Mark is able to quit the day job and work fulltime on SA, then surely this will benefit us all by speeding up the process of completing the product successfully. Peter Cos has not "bought out" SA for his own benefit, FDS is well and truly a successful business in it's own right and he could easily employ a software engineer to develop avionics for him. Peter is offering assistance to a team with a product that he believes will already be the best available product and his motivation is 'getting it finished and out there'. The price increase is pitching the product where ultimately, it should be!

Building a cockpit flight simulator is an expensive hobby and we all part with many bucks creating our sims. I have had many potential throttle customers complain about AUD$3,800 for "just a replica throttle" but they don't see the 70 to 90 hours of labour that goes into producing over a hundred components of a replica TQ. They don't see the countless hours of producing CAD drawings in order to make the components. This is the same deal for all hardware vendors, there are countless hours that go to producing simulator hardware for what is very much as niche market. If you can't afford a professional working replica throttle then make one yourself, it's as simple as that. When we think of simulator software, we presume it easy to replicate into a downloadable format, the work is done so it cost practically nothing to reproduce. The truth is, the work is never done and development continues via the efforts of these very talented software engineers.

When our simulators are built and we have spent somewhere between 10k and 100k producing the replica cockpit hardware, should we skimp on the software that makes it live and breathe? The avionics is it's brain and connects it all together. This is Peter's view and I've got to agree really from a vendor point of view. We all have the choice to speak freely and complain if we want to but all the complaining in the world won't change the price of a product but it might harm the relationship between a vendor and the potential market that our forum holds for him/her. If it is too expensive for you to buy then you have to find a cheaper alternative, that is the top and bottom of it! The growth of this hobby will ensure that alternatives appear and I'm sure we will see some healthy competition.

I hope we can all learn to appreciate a bit better what these people are trying to create for airline companies, training facillities, aircraft manufacturers and eventually us, the hobby enthusiast. There is a bigger picture but we are all bound to benefit from these types of development.

Regards,
Gwyn

(Same comment posted in the other current SA thread)