737 or Avro Rj(Bae146) Project?

[Timmi]

Hello all cockpitbuilders,

I have a problem of decision here. I would really like to build an Avro Rj cockpit. But as I have seen there is not much panels, overheads, yokes and so on for an Avro Rj cockpit. But then there is this other option, A boeing 737 cockpit were there is parts everywhere that you can bild your own home cockpit with. But the hardest to get to the Avro Rj is maybe a overhead panel and EFIS and engine screens. But the other stuff should not be to hard to build yourself right? So now what do you think I should go for A hard and expensive Avro Rj or an easy a bit cheaper 737 cockpit? :)

Cheers Tim

[JWS]

Tim,

there are several people here on the forum (and on other forums as well) that own machinery to produce panels. You could try to ask them if they are willing to help you with Rj panels. Beware that there is, as far as I know, no software to link to your Rj overhead. You'll have to use something else (737??).

Success,

JWS

[Timmi]

Tim,

there are several people here on the forum (and on other forums as well) that own machinery to produce panels. You could try to ask them if they are willing to help you with Rj panels. Beware that there is, as far as I know, no software to link to your Rj overhead. You'll have to use something else (737??).

Success,

JWS

Ah thank you for the info. And yes maybe converting a 737 overhead to a Bae 146 overhead can be an option but the big diffirence is the knobs and button tho.
I will look around on the forum:D But these people with machines does they only make panels how about yokes and such, Is there anyone with such skills or do you think I should wait for someone to put one up on Ebay maybe? thank you very much.

/Tim

[JWS]

Tim,

don't know how "handy" you are but if you search the internet for "yoke" you'll probably find websites from cockpitbuilders who made a yoke themselves e.g. from wood illustrated with pictures).

If you're not that handy you can always try to buy one, e.g. from Routech:

http://www.routech.ro/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=48&Itemid=56

I believe this is what you're looking for.

JWS

[Timmi]

Aaahh Wonderful!:D exactly what I was looking for thank you very much. I will try to find someone that can help me with the panel.
will keep you updated here on the forum about my progress.

Thank you again Jan

Cheers Tim

[pdpo]

Hi there,

if the AVro RJ is what you want to build the most and you have the skills and possibilities and you can settle on maybe not 100% true to live avro cockpit... then I would build that. Part of the fun and reward is in making things yourself.
Of course, if you want perfection and everything just like the real thing....then it might be better to settle for something so many people are doing already and where companies have seen opportunities and are producing almost real life replicas of every switch, knob, control and panel.
Like the 737 there are already 3 or 4 software suppliers trying their best at producing real life replicas of the avionics.
For avro, it is still a question on where you'll find software suitable. Where you'll find the overhead logics simulation? Many challenges here?

Greetz Peter

[Timmi]

Hi there,

if the AVro RJ is what you want to build the most and you have the skills and possibilities and you can settle on maybe not 100% true to live avro cockpit... then I would build that. Part of the fun and reward is in making things yourself.
Of course, if you want perfection and everything just like the real thing....then it might be better to settle for something so many people are doing already and where companies have seen opportunities and are producing almost real life replicas of every switch, knob, control and panel.
Like the 737 there are already 3 or 4 software suppliers trying their best at producing real life replicas of the avionics.
For avro, it is still a question on where you'll find software suitable. Where you'll find the overhead logics simulation? Many challenges here?

Greetz Peter

Yes but if I will make the panel myself do you have any suggestions if i should use real metal panel or wood panel? Allso I need measures of the panel to like width of the EFIS screens and where they should be placed and so on do you know any website or something? So no.1 wood or metal and allso need measures from a panel from a Avro Rj.

Greets, Tim

[JWS]

Tim,

If you want a BAE/RJ, why not start with some infogathering, like
Wiki : http://www.google.nl/#hl=nl&source=hp&q=bae146+wiki&aq=2&aqi=g1g-s1g1&aql=&oq=BAE146&gs_rfai=&fp=e1566434dd06c46f

Airliners.net: http://www.airliners.net

The manufacturer: http://www.regional-services.com/.

E-mail BAE and explain what you want to do and ask them for measurements. Write the Airline company in your country that uses them, and ask if you may visit the cockpit to take pictures and take measurements.

Really, there is so much you can do before embarking on the project.
And I would do it the easy way and start with wood.

If you want instruments, have a look at programs that make it possible to build your own panel (ask help in forums e.g. AVSIM.com dedicated to panel design).

Success,

JWS

[Sean Nixon]

Tim

That's pretty good advice from JWS, exactly what I would be doing.

Your main obstacle, I think, is the lack of publicly available information on the Avro, as it's not a popular aircraft for home builders. But that needn't stop you going down that route, your research stage will take a lot longer though, but it'll be enjoyable (and frustrating)!

If I come across any RJ info, I'll pass it on.

http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?aircraft_genericsearch=%3D%28%22bae+systems+avro+146-rj%2Frjx%22+OR+%22british+aerospace+bae-146%2Favro+rj%22%29&airlinesearch=&countrysearch=&specialsearch=cockpit&daterange=&keywords=&range=&sort_order=photo_id+desc&page_limit=120&thumbnails=noinfo

Best of luck.

Sean

[Ronson2k9]

The BAE146/RJ is a personal favorite of mine. So I'll do the best I can to help you.

First place to go is the BAEPanel Project website (http://www.baepanelproject.com/). Although it's been 'closed' (no updates/support) It's still up and there you will find both a 146 and RJ panel. What's important about them is that there is a pretty complete manual on how they function. Carefully researched and put into FSX (146) and FS2004 (RJ). You should find them quite informative.

There is also this AVSOFT RJ-85 Cockpit Posters (http://www.avsoft.com/index.php?q=node/161)

I don't know what platform you plan on using if it's FSX/FS2004 there aren't to many available models. More for FS2004. Finding a good model that you want to turn into a cockpit is important. Ultimately it's a sim more then a cockpit. For the BAE146/FS2004 there is the AEROSOFT BAE146 (http://www.aerosoft.com/cgi-local/us/iboshop.cgi?showdsearchbae:010010!0,5638795130,DF01364) For freeware BAE146's you can check out the Historic Jetliners Group (http://hjg.awardspace.com/downloads.php?model1=1&model4=36&mfr4=Get+Aircraft&model3=10&model2=3&operator=1).

For drawings there is this nice BAE RJ-70 Cutaway (http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace/media/civilaviation1949-2006cutaways/avro-rj70-cutaway-6860.aspx). You can download and buy larger prints if you like.

For the RJ there really isn't to much out there. One of the big differences between the 146 and the RJ is the updated 'Glass' cockpit. With the RJ getting the treatment.

If going all out the holly grail of the BAE is the FCOM (Flight Crew Operations Manual). You can try Ebay but they are pretty rare. I took a pretty good look for one and couldn't find one. They could be available from aftermarket suppliers but they aren't going to be to cheap. The manual from the BAE Panel Project site should do pretty good though. Mr. Lieberecht has done a great job on the panel. Trying to incorporate all that could fit into FS2004/FSX.

If a trip to Ireland is in your future you may want to get some seat time in BAE146 Sim you can rent time in. Atlantic AirVenture (http://www.atlanticairventure.com/) As your building your own it could be worth it to get some pointers from an actual pilot on systems. They may even let you take measurements?

That should get you started anyway.. Best of luck on your build. It's a particular favorite of mine. It's STOL capabilities and fairly large role as a Cargo Transport make it the 'Bush' plane with punch. So don't forget to keep us updated with your research and design. You'll find that even though there are many unique things about the BAE Systems jet there are quite a few things that can come from other aircraft others are building here and at the very least there is a ton you can learn about how to build a cockpit.

Cheers
Ron

[Timmi]

Hello Ron,

Your links was really helpful actually. Especially the Rj 85 cockpit poster. So now I will make up a plan of where to start. I will try to start with building a shell and for that I will need measurements for angles of glareshields, windows and so on. Maybe I could get in touch with Bae systems and maybe if I am lucky they can help me out with some measures and so. But the poster will be very helpfull I hope as it is in 1:1 scale like the "real deal" cockpit. I have allso tried to get in touch with routech about the yokes but still no sucess. I will not start building anything before I have made up a plan and got measurements as it would be stupid to start without it. So I will keep you all updated on the forum of my progress you all have helped allot allready and I hope I will be able to start my progress as soon as possible.

Thanks again Ron and hope I will intreduce a finished Avro rj cockpit project in the end.

Greets, Tim

[Ronson2k9]

The posters are 1:1 btw... from what I've read.

This is also this site for BAE146 cockpit posters although they are about 1/2 scale.
http://www.t-b-x.com/prather/777project/NewProject/posters.htm

BAE/Avro RJ Brochures (http://www.regional-services.com/Content/Page/prod_arj)

Based on that the interior space (width) is 11'-2"

[Timmi]

The posters are 1:1 btw... from what I've read.

This is also this site for BAE146 cockpit posters although they are about 1/2 scale.
http://www.t-b-x.com/prather/777project/NewProject/posters.htm

http://s782.photobucket.com/albums/yy108/timcoolfsx/?action=view&current=3V-B17-BAE-146.jpg"]http://s782.photobucket.com/albums/yy108/timcoolfsx/?action=view&current=3V-B17-BAE-146.jpg

Based on that the interior space (width) is 11'-2"

Okay how much is "11'-2". Im thinking of using a 6mm MDF for the main panel so it won't be metal unless I can find something cheap.

[URL="http://s782.photobucket.com/albums/yy108/timcoolfsx/?action=view&current=3V-B17-BAE-146.jpg[/URL]

Blue: Height
Green: Width
Red: Angle of the windshear and front

any ideas of the measures of these three colours?

[Ronson2k9]

If you take a look at the brochure you will find the interior dimensions (of the cabin). Although it's not the flight deck you will be able to extrapolate to a degree.

Based on the Brochure (of the cabin mind you).

Interior Diameter = 3.42m
Interior Floor = 3.24m
Interior Headroom = 2.07m

As you enter the aircraft that is what you would face. The flight deck is slightly less then that. I'm working on a Drawing for you that should give you the flight deck information you would need. It won't include the instrument panel or pedestal/overhead but should give you shell info. For the actual panel info I would look to the 1:1 posters of the panels. Also note the above info is interior not exterior. There is a bit of space around that for ribs/frame of the fuselage.

From photographs of the flight deck there is quite a bit of room to the exterior from the seats in the cockpit. It also looks like the 'isle' space is continued into the flight deck from the cabin. That is there is the same separation as in the cabin then the pedestal is in the middle of that.

Drawing coming shortly

Cheers
Ron

[JWS]

Okay how much is "11'-2".

1 inch. = 25,4 mm
1 foot = 12 inch. = 304,8 mm

So 11'-2" = about 3403.6 mm (3,40 mtrs).

You'll find conversion tables on the ineternet.

JWS

[Timmi]

If you take a look at the brochure you will find the interior dimensions (of the cabin). Although it's not the flight deck you will be able to extrapolate to a degree.

Based on the Brochure (of the cabin mind you).

Interior Diameter = 3.42m
Interior Floor = 3.24m
Interior Headroom = 2.07m

As you enter the aircraft that is what you would face. The flight deck is slightly less then that. I'm working on a Drawing for you that should give you the flight deck information you would need. It won't include the instrument panel or pedestal/overhead but should give you shell info. For the actual panel info I would look to the 1:1 posters of the panels. Also note the above info is interior not exterior. There is a bit of space around that for ribs/frame of the fuselage.

From photographs of the flight deck there is quite a bit of room to the exterior from the seats in the cockpit. It also looks like the 'isle' space is continued into the flight deck from the cabin. That is there is the same separation as in the cabin then the pedestal is in the middle of that.

Drawing coming shortly

Cheers
Ron

Thank you very much Ron :D You are really helping me out here very appreciated. Bought a 6mm MDF that is 4 meters wide and 2.5 meters high today that I can use as panel will allso try to order the cockpit poster today just have to find the best one. I really like forward to the drawing you are making for me hope it will be helpful:) Don't have much time to write now but I will get back later. Thanks again Ron and I really appreciate that you are helping me out.

Cheers and thanks/ Tim

[Ronson2k9]

This s a partial exterior and partial interior of the RJ

http://i416.photobucket.com/albums/pp244/Ronson2k3/BAe_146-300_FD_Comb.png

I can't take credit for the whole drawing though it's part template (airliners.net) and part brochure from BAE. The upper drawing (top view) though is mine.

I'm working on a longitudinal cross section and flight deck floor plan.

Cheers
Ron

[Timmi]

This s a partial exterior and partial interior of the RJ

http://i416.photobucket.com/albums/pp244/Ronson2k3/BAe_146-300_FD_Comb.png

I can't take credit for the whole drawing though it's part template (airliners.net) and part brochure from BAE. The upper drawing (top view) though is mine.

I'm working on a longitudinal cross section and flight deck floor plan.

Cheers
Ron

Ahh wonderful Ron:D Looks really good this will be very helpful already. Do you have a scale of these two picturtes that I can work with to didn't understand what a pixel is like 1cm on the drawing=....cm in real, sorry:roll: ? Because that would allso be great:) Thanks and I will see you soon again/ Tim

[Ronson2k9]

Yep it's 1 pixel for 2.5 inches or 2 pixels for 5 inches. Or as on the drawing it's 1 pixel for 62.5mm. There as you may have seen in photos of the cockpit two pods to the side of the seats for storage (manuals/charts) the brown parts in the top view. The seats are a bit wide too so that's a good thing. The seats are right beside them in the inside. The windows in the top view are a transfer from the bottom so they are as correct as the bottom one.

If you take a look at the manual from the BAE Panel Project site. You will find many items that are a crossover from other aircraft. That you can then build a new manual from based on. Especially the avionics. There are a few things that are unique to the RJ (that's where the Panel Project site comes in handy) that you will need to find but there are many that are standard and there you have docs. panels, drawings, etc that can be gleaned from other aircraft types.

If you take a look at Smart Cockpit (http://www.smartcockpit.com/). You will find many manuals from other aircraft. Unfortunately even though the BAE 146/RJ is listed it's currently not available. Sadly as it's a bit of gas guzzler it's coming out service pretty quickly these days as airlines look to save on fuel costs. Cargo though is much more profitable then passengers so it can absorb that cost plus it's STOL ability extends its range and usefulness. It can go to many of the shorter fields that the larger birds can't land at.

That's one of the most appealing aspects of the BAE for me. It's that you can fly cargo for TNT one day and passengers the next. So it never is the same. Through in the variable weather of Europe and you have a great mix of flying.

When you get the posters that will be the bomb. You will have everything you'll need except the building of course to build one.

It's not as wide up front as it is in the cabin. Then there is the moldings around the seating area of the cockpit. Luckily there are a ton of cockpit photos online. It doesn't quite make up for drawings but you can get a ton of details that drawings would never give you.

Cheers
Ron

[Timmi]

Yep it's 1 pixel for 2.5 inches or 2 pixels for 5 inches. Or as on the drawing it's 1 pixel for 62.5mm. There as you may have seen in photos of the cockpit two pods to the side of the seats for storage (manuals/charts) the brown parts in the top view. The seats are a bit wide too so that's a good thing. The seats are right beside them in the inside. The windows in the top view are a transfer from the bottom so they are as correct as the bottom one.

If you take a look at the manual from the BAE Panel Project site. You will find many items that are a crossover from other aircraft. That you can then build a new manual from based on. Especially the avionics. There are a few things that are unique to the RJ (that's where the Panel Project site comes in handy) that you will need to find but there are many that are standard and there you have docs. panels, drawings, etc that can be gleaned from other aircraft types.

If you take a look at Smart Cockpit (http://www.smartcockpit.com/). You will find many manuals from other aircraft. Unfortunately even though the BAE 146/RJ is listed it's currently not available. Sadly as it's a bit of gas guzzler it's coming out service pretty quickly these days as airlines look to save on fuel costs. Cargo though is much more profitable then passengers so it can absorb that cost plus it's STOL ability extends its range and usefulness. It can go to many of the shorter fields that the larger birds can't land at.

That's one of the most appealing aspects of the BAE for me. It's that you can fly cargo for TNT one day and passengers the next. So it never is the same. Through in the variable weather of Europe and you have a great mix of flying.

When you get the posters that will be the bomb. You will have everything you'll need except the building of course to build one.

It's not as wide up front as it is in the cabin. Then there is the moldings around the seating area of the cockpit. Luckily there are a ton of cockpit photos online. It doesn't quite make up for drawings but you can get a ton of details that drawings would never give you.

Cheers
Ron

Wooo Ron that's quite much stuff to work with very helpful:D but what is a Pixel?:-?Found the measures of the PFD (Primary flight display) and nav display in the avro rj, they are 5x6 inches but I dony know if that is with the Frame around the display or without it. Okay I'm not in for the manual thing right now, I'm more for make up a drawing and measures that I can work with when I finally will start building the cockpit. So the manual thing I will wait with but thanks Ron will be useful later:D I actually have a neighbour that is a pilot and work for a swedish company "Malmö Aviation" that operates 7 Avro RJ 100 and 2 Avro RJ 85's so maybe I can ask him if I can go for a ride when he work and make some measures then:) But I will buy a Cockpit poster but don't know wich one cause dont know what scale it is in. So there are allot things to measure so that's the BIG question where to get them will try to get in touch with BAE systems if the can help me with that to. Have looked around on the forum if I can find some gauges that are used in the Avro and the 737 has most of the gauges that the Avro has so maybe I can find a Altimeter and that kind of things. Thank you very much Ron and I'll come back later;)

Thanks/ Tim

[Ronson2k9]

A pixel is one graphic square in the image for instance the thinnest lines are 1 pixel thick. So they are 2.5 inches thick. It was the largest drawing I could find of the BAE RJ. I could blow that up but then I/you would loose resolution. Lines would become 2-4 pixels thick. Then it's more of educated guess then an accurate drawing.

First save the picture in to your desktop (right click - save image)
then open it up in a graphics program say Gimp or Paint.net etc
Set the ruler to pixels
then every line you draw will give you the pixel length (that's your measuring tape)
You can then measure anything in the drawing you want.
Write down the number of pixels, multiply by the 2.5" or 62.5mm and there you go.

The FCOM wouldn't have dimensions most likely. Perhaps for emergency doors and the like but not for normal operations. The posters are what you need pretty well. From there you will have pretty well all the dimensions you will need to build all the flight controls. The rest you can get from photos. If you're building a shell.

I know the one set is 1:1 scale but you can get them in smaller sizes. That's for lets say a class on switchology and you want your students to have a size they can take with them. The 1:1 scale would be for you/instructor. The other is probably the same but reduced for printing/storage convenience perhaps? I fired off an email to the 'less expensive' one to see if they know the scale of the panel they have for sale.

That said there are standard gauges on the panel you can use to scale up the panel with. Remember the manual location I sent you to before. In there you will see manuals of other aircraft with common instruments. If you can find the dimension of the common instrument and the image of the panel you have a scale. As the instrument dimension will give you that. As I'm building a Cessna 185 the part manual I have of that doesn't have any measurements so I went with the common gauge size to get the dimensions. There are ways around difficulties. Of course nothing beats seat time with a measuring tape if you can get it. Or even if you had your friend take a few measurements for you.

Pedestal width and height
Throttle quad width and height
MIP width and leg clearance.
Autopilot dimensions and overhang.
Then perhaps the overhead dimensions.

I did some educated calculations. Just to explain what I did so you get an idea of the accuracy.
- I took the flattest pic I could get of the Avro RJ MIP I could find on airliners.net.
- I then measured on of the smaller gauges not because they didn't have bigger ones but the smaller ones in this case are more standardized.
- Then I measured in pixels at the center point (where the one of the smaller gauges sits in the photo) the diameter of the gauge
- Then I converted that into a known measurement. 27.76p = 56.56mm
- Then I measured out the following large dimensions.

MIP (Main Instrument Panel) not the mount it sits in (no fairing)
Width = 2.042m
Height = 0.522m or 52.2cm

AP (Autopilot) on top of the MIP
Width = 1.1812m
Height = 0.150m or 15.2cm
- Note as this is off the 'plain' of parallax (sticks out from parallax) it's a best guess.

CDU (Control Data Unit) - Forward most part of the pedestal
Width = 0.641m or 64.1cm

Note also the MIP is angled away from the pilot from bottom to top slightly. I would say 10 to 15 degrees.

That should give a let's say an infield view of the ballpark your making. It's not 100% accurate but it's pretty close. Your 1:1 or other scale drawing of the MIP and other control boxes will be much better (welll 100%)

You can also go through the list of avionics in the BAE RJ technical brochure and then track down the tech specs of the avionics in the list.

It's not an easy job piecing the stuff together because basically you are outside looking in. It can be done though. If your patient and work diligently you'll find everything you need.

With me it started basically the same way. It takes time to work it out. Some of the bits will be 'as best as possible' others will be bang on. Unless your building a pit that an actual pilot will be flying then as best as possible will do. That's not to say you have to sacrifice accuracy but the feel will be there of the actual cockpit your building and that's what is important. All the other stuff is just to immerse you into that. You will also find and this is more the case for the heavies then the GA aircraft. That you'll be making things more then buying them ready made. As the heavy parts are more expensive and harder to find.

As you have chosen the 'Glass' version of the BAE you can get away with using LCD's for many of your instruments. In this case the BAE Panel Project is the place to go for the instruments. As he not only built the panel but programed many of the instruments that are custom to the BAE RJ. You may need to resize and so on using the Panel Creator software to get it to the size of your full size pit but that's pretty easy. As all the coding of the instruments is done it's wyswyg.

This getting a bit long so I'll end here for now. That should get you started though on your road to dimensional heaven..

Cheers
Ron

[Timmi]

A pixel is one graphic square in the image for instance the thinnest lines are 1 pixel thick. So they are 2.5 inches thick. It was the largest drawing I could find of the BAE RJ. I could blow that up but then I/you would loose resolution. Lines would become 2-4 pixels thick. Then it's more of educated guess then an accurate drawing.

First save the picture in to your desktop (right click - save image)
then open it up in a graphics program say Gimp or Paint.net etc
Set the ruler to pixels
then every line you draw will give you the pixel length (that's your measuring tape)
You can then measure anything in the drawing you want.
Write down the number of pixels, multiply by the 2.5" or 62.5mm and there you go.

The FCOM wouldn't have dimensions most likely. Perhaps for emergency doors and the like but not for normal operations. The posters are what you need pretty well. From there you will have pretty well all the dimensions you will need to build all the flight controls. The rest you can get from photos. If you're building a shell.

I know the one set is 1:1 scale but you can get them in smaller sizes. That's for lets say a class on switchology and you want your students to have a size they can take with them. The 1:1 scale would be for you/instructor. The other is probably the same but reduced for printing/storage convenience perhaps? I fired off an email to the 'less expensive' one to see if they know the scale of the panel they have for sale.

That said there are standard gauges on the panel you can use to scale up the panel with. Remember the manual location I sent you to before. In there you will see manuals of other aircraft with common instruments. If you can find the dimension of the common instrument and the image of the panel you have a scale. As the instrument dimension will give you that. As I'm building a Cessna 185 the part manual I have of that doesn't have any measurements so I went with the common gauge size to get the dimensions. There are ways around difficulties. Of course nothing beats seat time with a measuring tape if you can get it. Or even if you had your friend take a few measurements for you.

Pedestal width and height
Throttle quad width and height
MIP width and leg clearance.
Autopilot dimensions and overhang.
Then perhaps the overhead dimensions.

I did some educated calculations. Just to explain what I did so you get an idea of the accuracy.
- I took the flattest pic I could get of the Avro RJ MIP I could find on airliners.net.
- I then measured on of the smaller gauges not because they didn't have bigger ones but the smaller ones in this case are more standardized.
- Then I measured in pixels at the center point (where the one of the smaller gauges sits in the photo) the diameter of the gauge
- Then I converted that into a known measurement. 27.76p = 56.56mm
- Then I measured out the following large dimensions.

MIP (Main Instrument Panel) not the mount it sits in (no fairing)
Width = 2.042m
Height = 0.522m or 52.2cm

AP (Autopilot) on top of the MIP
Width = 1.1812m
Height = 0.150m or 15.2cm
- Note as this is off the 'plain' of parallax (sticks out from parallax) it's a best guess.

CDU (Control Data Unit) - Forward most part of the pedestal
Width = 0.641m or 64.1cm

Note also the MIP is angled away from the pilot from bottom to top slightly. I would say 10 to 15 degrees.

That should give a let's say an infield view of the ballpark your making. It's not 100% accurate but it's pretty close. Your 1:1 or other scale drawing of the MIP and other control boxes will be much better (welll 100%)

You can also go through the list of avionics in the BAE RJ technical brochure and then track down the tech specs of the avionics in the list.

It's not an easy job piecing the stuff together because basically you are outside looking in. It can be done though. If your patient and work diligently you'll find everything you need.

With me it started basically the same way. It takes time to work it out. Some of the bits will be 'as best as possible' others will be bang on. Unless your building a pit that an actual pilot will be flying then as best as possible will do. That's not to say you have to sacrifice accuracy but the feel will be there of the actual cockpit your building and that's what is important. All the other stuff is just to immerse you into that. You will also find and this is more the case for the heavies then the GA aircraft. That you'll be making things more then buying them ready made. As the heavy parts are more expensive and harder to find.

As you have chosen the 'Glass' version of the BAE you can get away with using LCD's for many of your instruments. In this case the BAE Panel Project is the place to go for the instruments. As he not only built the panel but programed many of the instruments that are custom to the BAE RJ. You may need to resize and so on using the Panel Creator software to get it to the size of your full size pit but that's pretty easy. As all the coding of the instruments is done it's wyswyg.

This getting a bit long so I'll end here for now. That should get you started though on your road to dimensional heaven..

Cheers
Ron

Thank you so much Ron. You have really helped me out I will start building as soon as possible will keep you updated promise.
Just ordered the MIP poster and I hope it will arrive here in Sweden soon so that I can start. Maybe I even will make a trip to manchester to see the Avro RJX.
So I will try to set up a drawing with the measures you gave me and so yep let's pause for now with the writing and I'll make some action with my future Home Cockpit and hopefully sucessfull. Thanks again Ron have been very helpful very appriciated.

Thanks/ Tim

[Ronson2k9]

When I said I'd end here. That didn't mean I was done writing in the thread just that that particular message was getting pretty long. Sometimes I can run on a bit hehe. I'll keep looking for info and the like for you on for simpit and put up what ever I can find. I am working on mine too so it's a bit of diversion when my work stalls a bit.

Have you decided what model of the of RJ your going to make? Not that the flight deck is much different but there aren't to many FSX/FS2004 models out there for you to choose from. Well in reality outside of the engines and the flightdeck the RJ and 146 are the same bird pretty well. They are configured differently on the inside but from the outside they are the same. You know of course that there are no reversers on the engines. I should think though that they would produce a great deal of drag when at idle and there is the speed brake on the back. Their thrust to weight is probably higher accounting for it's less then excellent fuel economy. Hey in the sim fuel is free hehe.

In case you are wondering what the current inventory of BAE 146/RJ are flying today here is a site with the most up to date fleet info. Airliner List.com (http://www.airlinerlist.com/) and there Zipped XLS format fleet info on the 146/RJ Fleets (Sept 24, 2010) (http://www.planelist.net/bae-146.zip)

I tried getting some avionics info from Honeywell's website but after spending a bit of time trying to get into there information system it finally told me I needed to be an American citizen.. So no dice as I'm Canadian. I had found a PDF on the MIDU (http://www51.honeywell.com/aero/common/documents/myaerospacecatalog-documents/ATR_Brochures-documents/MIDU_Product_Description.pdf) that was supposedly in the RJ70 but I couldn't find a cockpit picture with that unit in there. So that's what inspired the trip to Honeywell.

I found this Honeywell Flight Acronym Dictionary.PDF (http://www.ultraligero.net/Cursos/fraseologia_comunicaciones/abreviaturas.pdf)

List of avionics on board the standard RJ

• Collins passenger address system
• Dual Collins 8.33Khz VHF Comms
• Honeywell DFGS
• Dual Collins DME700
• Dual ADF
• Dual VHF Nav (ILS720/VOR700A)
• Single or dual Collins Radalt
• Sundstrand Mk5 GPWS or Honeywell EGPWS
• Dual GNS-X or Collins GNLU910A Nav. Management Systems
• Honeywell RDR-4A Weather radar
• TCAS Change 7
• Dual Mode ‘S’ transponders
• Flight Data Recorder
• Cockpit Voice Recorder

There is also the FADEC engine management system. As they are using the Honeywell LF507-1F engines that is also attached to there FADEC system. That is it also is by Honeywell. Same engines are used on the Embraer E170 btw. A trip back to smart cockpit yielded nothing on the bird either .. Worth a shot though.

The info search will continue. I'll be curious as to how close I was on the MIP measurements when you get the posters. At about 2 meters wide that's a biggie. Mine is only 40" or just over a meter wide. Depending on weather you are going to make a shell then it's a bit bigger about 0.75m or so. There are some controls on the panels to the left of the captains seat. Crew calls and so on I'm thinking. From photos of the overhead it's divided into two major sections. Engine electrical and environmental controls and the breaker panel. The former being forward most.

It's an unusual bird and that's what makes it special. It's STOL and multiple configurations give it a wide variety of roles and routes. In my book that makes it an excellent project. I'll monitor your progress and keep trying to get more info for you as best as I can ;)

Cheers
Ron

[Timmi]

When I said I'd end here. That didn't mean I was done writing in the thread just that that particular message was getting pretty long. Sometimes I can run on a bit hehe. I'll keep looking for info and the like for you on for simpit and put up what ever I can find. I am working on mine too so it's a bit of diversion when my work stalls a bit.

Have you decided what model of the of RJ your going to make? Not that the flight deck is much different but there aren't to many FSX/FS2004 models out there for you to choose from. Well in reality outside of the engines and the flightdeck the RJ and 146 are the same bird pretty well. They are configured differently on the inside but from the outside they are the same. You know of course that there are no reversers on the engines. I should think though that they would produce a great deal of drag when at idle and there is the speed brake on the back. Their thrust to weight is probably higher accounting for it's less then excellent fuel economy. Hey in the sim fuel is free hehe.

In case you are wondering what the current inventory of BAE 146/RJ are flying today here is a site with the most up to date fleet info. Airliner List.com (http://www.airlinerlist.com/) and there Zipped XLS format fleet info on the 146/RJ Fleets (Sept 24, 2010) (http://www.planelist.net/bae-146.zip)

I tried getting some avionics info from Honeywell's website but after spending a bit of time trying to get into there information system it finally told me I needed to be an American citizen.. So no dice as I'm Canadian. I had found a PDF on the MIDU (http://www51.honeywell.com/aero/common/documents/myaerospacecatalog-documents/ATR_Brochures-documents/MIDU_Product_Description.pdf) that was supposedly in the RJ70 but I couldn't find a cockpit picture with that unit in there. So that's what inspired the trip to Honeywell.

I found this Honeywell Flight Acronym Dictionary.PDF (http://www.ultraligero.net/Cursos/fraseologia_comunicaciones/abreviaturas.pdf)

List of avionics on board the standard RJ

• Collins passenger address system
• Dual Collins 8.33Khz VHF Comms
• Honeywell DFGS
• Dual Collins DME700
• Dual ADF
• Dual VHF Nav (ILS720/VOR700A)
• Single or dual Collins Radalt
• Sundstrand Mk5 GPWS or Honeywell EGPWS
• Dual GNS-X or Collins GNLU910A Nav. Management Systems
• Honeywell RDR-4A Weather radar
• TCAS Change 7
• Dual Mode ‘S’ transponders
• Flight Data Recorder
• Cockpit Voice Recorder

There is also the FADEC engine management system. As they are using the Honeywell LF507-1F engines that is also attached to there FADEC system. That is it also is by Honeywell. Same engines are used on the Embraer E170 btw. A trip back to smart cockpit yielded nothing on the bird either .. Worth a shot though.

The info search will continue. I'll be curious as to how close I was on the MIP measurements when you get the posters. At about 2 meters wide that's a biggie. Mine is only 40" or just over a meter wide. Depending on weather you are going to make a shell then it's a bit bigger about 0.75m or so. There are some controls on the panels to the left of the captains seat. Crew calls and so on I'm thinking. From photos of the overhead it's divided into two major sections. Engine electrical and environmental controls and the breaker panel. The former being forward most.

It's an unusual bird and that's what makes it special. It's STOL and multiple configurations give it a wide variety of roles and routes. In my book that makes it an excellent project. I'll monitor your progress and keep trying to get more info for you as best as I can ;)

Cheers
Ron

Ahh ooh sorry thought you meant that we should stop writing hehe my bad. Yes I have looked around for a good Avro rj model to use inf Fsx/Fs9 and I've found some interesting stuff. Aerosoft online Eurowings BAe 146 is one of em. Allso Jon Murchison has made a good BAe146. But what software can I use that is for Avro RJ? Project magenta does'nt have anything what I know. I guess I'll have to use LCD screens for all the main displays like NAV, Engine and such displays. Bu some things is very easy like the MCP is taken form the 737 allso allmost all gauges are taken form the 737 to. But I would relly like a real altimeter gauge not a screen one or you know not showed on the screen. So Panel is to start with and after that I will try to build a grade one shell and then try to beat the overhead building. Maybe I can try to find a0 real avro overhead but that will cost whole credit card hehe. But it's only the buttons from the Avro RJ that is hard to make (or find for sale). I'll come back soon as the clock is 22.15 here in sweden so better go to bed soon hehe. Yep thanks Ron and see ya soon:)

[Sean Nixon]

I also find the flight deck videos helpful in getting a feeling for the layout and procedures of a particular aircraft.

Justplanes do a couple...

http://secure.simmarket.com/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=146

Here's a preview of the Albanian Airlines one...

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Lx2aunWP4_Y?fs=1&amp;hl=en_GB"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Lx2aunWP4_Y?fs=1&amp;hl=en_GB" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

[Sean Nixon]

Found some more...

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/vkDaPblzy2Y?fs=1&amp;hl=en_GB"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/vkDaPblzy2Y?fs=1&amp;hl=en_GB" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Mg_39WWLqec?fs=1&amp;hl=en_GB"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Mg_39WWLqec?fs=1&amp;hl=en_GB" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

[Timmi]

Found some more...

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/vkDaPblzy2Y?fs=1&amp;hl=en_GB"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/vkDaPblzy2Y?fs=1&amp;hl=en_GB" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Mg_39WWLqec?fs=1&amp;hl=en_GB"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Mg_39WWLqec?fs=1&amp;hl=en_GB" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

Thx Sean yeah that really makes quite a feeling of the cockpit:D

[mpl330]

Maybe I even will make a trip to manchester to see the Avro RJX.
Thanks/ Tim

Hi Tim,
Just uploaded a few cockpit photos of the RJX at Manchester in case they help...

http://www.mycockpit.org/photopost/showgallery.php?cat=613

Cheers
Mike

[Timmi]

Hi Tim,
Just uploaded a few cockpit photos of the RJX at Manchester in case they help...

http://www.mycockpit.org/photopost/showgallery.php?cat=613

Cheers
Mike

Thanks Mike:)

[Ronson2k9]

Fresh out the shop Premier Aircraft BAE146-100/200 or RJ 70/85 (http://www.premaircraft.com/) Their VC isn't much to look at but then you are building your own. They are usually quite meticulous when it comes to modeling and the exterior model looks quite good. Definitely worth a look see...

Cheers
Ron

[Timmi]

Fresh out the shop Premier Aircraft BAE146-100/200 or RJ 70/85 (http://www.premaircraft.com/) Their VC isn't much to look at but then you are building your own. They are usually quite meticulous when it comes to modeling and the exterior model looks quite good. Definitely worth a look see...

Cheers
Ron

Ah nice Ron. But I'll think I stick with the Eurowings PRO model. Aerosoft is allso making a avro rj but it won't be released untill next year. About the cockpit poster I ordered there was some trouble with the delivery but I should expect it next week they said. I have started drawing something to work with to make a shell for the cockpit pictures will come;)
Btw what scale or is the picture of the cockpit you sent me here in the thread?
Thanks Ron and see ya soon/ Tim

[Ronson2k9]

You mean the drawing of the cockpit or the cockpit I did the measurements from. I didn't post the pic. I can find if for you if you like.

This is the BAE RJ Flightdeck photo (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Northwest-Jet-Airlink/BAE-Systems-Avro/0763007/L/) I used for the cockpit measurements.

There are many others on there for photo ref but you need one that is nearly flat to measure from. Then I took one of the smaller instruments to use as a ruler.

[Timmi]

You mean the drawing of the cockpit or the cockpit I did the measurements from. I didn't post the pic. I can find if for you if you like.

This is the BAE RJ Flightdeck photo (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Northwest-Jet-Airlink/BAE-Systems-Avro/0763007/L/) I used for the cockpit measurements.

There are many others on there for photo ref but you need one that is nearly flat to measure from. Then I took one of the smaller instruments to use as a ruler.

No I mean the pic you posted here Wanted to know what scale it was so that I could Measure the windows to make a shell. I have got in touch with Routech so the BAe146 yokes is ready to go. But how did you manage to measure from the picture like "1 inch on the pic is like ...inches in real"?

Thanks/ Tim

[Ronson2k9]

On the drawing of the RJ each pixel (smallest graphic square) is 2.5 inches or 63.7mm. Remember though it's the biggest drawing I could find. For the MIP measurement (photo). I took one the smaller instruments in the photo. Knowing that it's a standard size and used that as a ruler to measure the mip with. I tried to find data on the larger instruments (so I could use that instead) but couldn't find anything on them. Honeywell is very protective of their info (probably a left over of 911). The one piece I did find although preported (by Honeywell) to be in the RJ I couldn't find a single example in any of the photos I had seen.

Okay.. If it we me building the RJ sim pit..

I would wait till I got the MIP poster (not sure if you ordered the 1:1 version) but that will be the most accurate piece of info you have. Then from there move outward. Keeping in mind the following pieces of info.

- the MIP is angled slightly away from the crew (about 5-10 degrees) others may have a more accurate idea of the angle. I should think it's pretty common.
- the cockpit is smaller (more closed in) then the drawing would indicate. As you have molding (walls) and storage on the interior. There are many photos on airliners.net that show this.
- before you build the windows give some thought to your visuals (projector/LCD screen). As that will be what you want to see. If you have the space for a full mockup then a projector(s) could be in your future. If not though you may want to stop at the MIP and everything aft of that and build your visuals accordingly.

On the actual aircraft the windows are pretty huge so if you aren't using a projector then your LCD's will look kind of small inside that space. In the flightsims of old. They were built (Link trainer - first flight sim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Link-trainer-ts.jpg)) to teach instrument usage. Even now visuals are pretty much a bonus and not really a requirement.

Okay that said I have picked up some more info for you and I've got a line on a FCOM if/the site it's on comes back up. It's currently down but the last cached version was only a day ago so could be back up soon. I did find an RJ Troubleshooting Guide (used by maintenance personnel). If you shoot me your email address in a PM I'll send the one off to you and when/if I get the other I'll send that too. The RJTSG doesn't have dimensioned drawings but does go through the cockpit layout and what procedures are used to test equipment. I'm sure some of those are used by flight crew as well. In some instances though you have to have access to exterior of the aircraft to check it (not going be crawling around the outside during flight hehe).

Cheers
Ron

[Timmi]

Yees that's the problem I ordered the wrong MIP poster so I canceled the order and the 1:1 scale MIP poster cost's 410 dollars and that is a bit to much in swedish curency so I dont know what to do really. Maybe I'll cancel this project and start a 737 project instead. So I don't know really. I have allso tried to get in touch with BAE systems but no sucess. I will try to work something out and see what I can gain.

Thanks/ Tim

[Ronson2k9]

You wouldn't need to do that. So long as it's accurate. You can get the scale of the MIP so long as you know the size of one of the items in the poster. Or the poster may contain the scale on the image. I had emailed them but they didn't answer my question about the scale of the poster. The poster has many advantages over using photos. It is to scale which can easily be determined. There are no items that would obstruct the view of the image and it is truly 2 dimensional. BTW the BAE_RJ FCOM isn't currently available from the site I had mentioned above. I did get on yesterday but all they have from BAE is the Jetstream 41 a twin turbine commuter. Not a bad bird BTW but not the RJ.

In the poster. Some of the items won't be able to be used as a scale as they could be custom made for the aircraft. However there are some standard items that can. All you need do is find one (which I had already done) and you can scale the poster. It's much like knowing the width of a door in a house and then using that as a scale for all the other items in drawing. In a photo it's a bit rough as the scales are smaller (it's a photo after all) and the accuracy requirement is pretty high.

So a somewhat small photo with small details going to a large object is not going to yield 100% accuracy. However in a poster - That's a drawing - which came from another drawing so it's accuracy is as best your going to have.

With me I was working with parts catalog of the Cessna 185. That didn't have dimensions at all and I combined that info with that of a known items (gauges) and was able to make a pretty well bang on scale drawing. I have no access to an actual aircraft but for me it will do what I want it to do. It may be off a little here and there but the essence is there and without actually measuring a real one would be hard to tell the difference. Still there is some guess work in it. You have to dig a bit though to get all you have to find.

Now you aren't going to find such a catalog for the RJ as it would be the size of a phone book hehe (if it exists in paper form). The best you can hope for if not able to get into a flight deck (or finding someone that has/could do that for you) is the poster/photos. Then you work with what you do know. I still hearken back to the BAE Panel Project. While it was built to fit as much as possible into the 2D panel as the flightsim could hold everything is where it should be. Even the stuff that couldn't be simulated at the time is there.

Given the recent cargo scare getting BAE info could be difficult. However there is quite a bit of free info already out there.

So I wouldn't give up. I didn't on the Cessna .. There wasn't even a good model for the flightsim when I started the project. I would still get the poster (the cheaper one). You can then scale that up. There are a few ways to do that via computer or even manually. Then it's just a question transfering to full size 'wood' or other material you're using for your MIP. That is where I would start BTW.

MIP is the biggest priority Then
Flight controls (should be as close to real thing as possible)
Then avionics
Then overhead
Then Visuals (exterior).

With the poster though that is the key. It will give you the dimensions to build everything else. Even if you have to find the scale yourself it's just a bit more work. Hey I'm still here helping you. So should be able to nail this down it's just going to take a bit of time.

Cheers
Ron

This BAE RJ100 photo (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Blue1/BAE-Systems-Avro/0462513/L/) is much better then the previous one. It looks to be center and below the autopilot. Perfect for making measurements with.

[JWS]

Tim,

If you start a project like this, it's vital that you don't give in easily when things are going a bit less fast of easy. Judging by the amount of info that you already have (courtesy by Ron) you should be able to start something. The photo of the flightdeck gives me the impression that the standby instruments look very much like the ones in the 737. Now there's a start because these measurements are available. And find someone who can get you into a cockpit with a tape measure (or let him do it).

Success,

JWS