Laser vs Router Engraving

[Atomic_Sheep]

I was just wondering, is there much of a difference between the quality of the two types of engraving? I'm picking out a CNC router but after reading a few posts and having a look at a few cockpit builds by people, some are using laser engraving and getting amazing results. Is it worth the extra money to either get the engraver or get the engraving done professionally or is it possible to all the work with just a CNC machine?

I am at a loss at the moment as I was planning on just getting a CNC machine but after I realised a lot of people are laser engraving, I immediately went in search of engraver prices and was bitterly disappointed as I'm not in a position to get both.

[skalarki]

There is no comparison!
You can do the job with any cheap CNC machine, but without quality.
But if comes to pricess, laser engravers are very expensive - forget about chinesse junk - then don't think it makes any sense to buy engraver just for few panels. Sending job to professional company will be much better and cheapper option.

Marcin

[geneb]

You really won't get good quality lettering in a CNC made panel if you want to edge-light them. Laser engraved panels typically only go through the first paint layer.

The really good ones are cut by a YAG laser that can be tuned to only ablate down to a white under layer.

G.

[Atomic_Sheep]

You really won't get good quality lettering in a CNC made panel if you want to edge-light them. Laser engraved panels typically only go through the first paint layer.

The really good ones are cut by a YAG laser that can be tuned to only ablate down to a white under layer.

G.

I had a look on google images to see what edge lighting is but I'm not sure where this type of lighting if I understand it correctly that is, is used in aircraft panels?

But yer, thanks guys, I'm starting to think whether I should even get a CNC machine or just use professional services to get all my work done. I suppose now it's my task to find companies that do custom order stuff and see how much they'll want to charge me and compare it to a CNC machine cost. I thought I had this question done and dusted but I realised that that might not be the case after I saw the quality of the work of some of these machines and to put it plainly, I wasn't too impressed. Thanks for the info, time for me to overlook this area.

[Wendy]

I have acces to both a cnc and a laser unit so here is a little explanation.

I'm using both laser engraving en cnc engraving. CNC engraving also gives very good results. However it takes much more time to do it very fine. A laser does the same job in 30 seconds and the quality is better.

You can buy a good cnc for around 2000 euro and add some for a good engraving nose (that is a must) and you can start engraving.

A laser 30 Watt will cost you around 10.000 euro and in addition you will also need airfiltering units.

I also asked prices to some professional laser engraving companies, but that is far beyond what I want to pay for engraving a panel.

The first picture is done with cnc engraving, the next 2 are laser engraved.

Regards, Wendy


http://www.querit.eu/FS/Engraving/FlapGauge_2Needles.JPG

http://www.querit.eu/FS/Engraving/Laser_LandingGear_Close.jpg

http://www.querit.eu/FS/Engraving/Laser_MainPaneldus.jpg

[Atomic_Sheep]

Thanks Wendy, that puts things into greater perspective. I know that CNC machines are expensive but I really thought I could get away with a cheap one. I'm still very interested in getting a CNC but by the sounds of it, one that I would be happy with is a little bit more than what I'm prepared to fork out at the moment. By the looks of it, I'd be happy with the CNC quality but the problem is that I want a machine which is going to have a work area of around 2 meters (and the bigger the better obviously so anything north of this is a big plus) by 80cm at least which means that to get a CNC router that will enable me to have the sort of quality that the 2000 euro machine you proposed has, the cost will be multiples of the 2000 euros as I'm guessing the 2000 euro machine isn't exactly a bahemoth or at least not really close to the sizes I'm thinking.

[Bernie]

Hi All,

Correct me if I am totally wrong here for any reason what so ever, but how can you compete with purchasing the panels. I would have thought from what I have seen so far (unless this is about creating everything for yourself) that the panels are cheap compared to the sort of money you are talking about. Please don't take this the wrong way, it is just that I am considering the purchase of all the individual panels (737) and laying them over the MDF sheet that I have used for the backing. The individual panels without any electronics attached don't seem to be that expensive.

Kind Regards

Bernie.

[Wendy]

Hey Bernie,

First of all I was not happy with the quality of the panels I have bought. Secondly there are a lot of other things to make besides panels or to complete ready made panels. Backplate, pcb's, knobs... Now I'm able to make everything exactly the way I'm pleased with it and I can make it whenever I feel the need for it, just have to pay for the material (acryl, paint, mdf, aluninum... ).

Another reason is that not everything is for sale at one place, so you end up with different styles, colors and good quality and less quality.



Regards, Wendy

[Atomic_Sheep]

Exactly, that and the fact that purchasing a CNC machine means you can start creating other stuff as well, i.e. not related to cockpit building.

[Bernie]

Hi Wendy,

Thankyou for the response. That is something I hadn't considered so I am glad I have asked now. More things to think about now, oh well that is just as much fun as all the building. Again thankyou for more food for thought.

Kind Regards

Bernie.

[mefiu]

Two questions:
1.

a work area of around 2 meters by 80cm
What for do you need a router so big?
2.
What kind of differences between laser and classic router do you afraid? Quality? Lack of details?
From what distance your panels will be looked at?

mefiu

[Atomic_Sheep]

1.) Based on what I've sketched out so far, some pieces are quite large I'm thinking specifically, parts of the shell. I did think about getting a smaller router, just big enough to comfortably cut out the largest panel peices and go to professionals to get the bigger pieces cut out but yer I'm not sure. Still need to do a lot more work to get a better and more realistic idea about the sort of work area that is right for me as well as the right price.

2.) I'm worried about quality and lack of details. I'm just generally quite anal and mediocre parts will just frustrate me even if I never see it. Knowing that the parts aren't well made will be enough for me not to be able to sleep soundly.

[mefiu]

some pieces are quite large I'm thinking specifically, parts of the shellWhat large parts of a cockpit, even a shell, need to be LASER engraved?

I'm worried about quality and lack of details. Knowing that the parts aren't well made will be enough for me not to be able to sleep soundly.OK, I got the point now.
If you are that bold and can't stand even the slightest drop of quality, don't bother buying laser.
Go buy ready kits & parts from one of the existing vendors.
Or buy a large classic mill (way more cheaper than laser), cut the large parts yourself and go get them engraved by a 3rd party.
If we are still speaking only about cockpit building, it's impossible, even in a zyllion light years, you're gonna balance the cost of a large laser to the cost of ready parts you would buy from sim parts vendors.

[Atomic_Sheep]

I think we are on different wavelengths here. I want a big router to be able to cut big pieces as well as small. I was just wondering what other members were experiencing in terms of quality between laser engraving and router engraving. I would never buy a laser engraver that has a work area that big. I was just wondering whether there is a noticable quality difference between laser engraving and router engraving to determine which way to go i.e. to just focus on getting the best possible and the largest router machine I could get based on my budget and just use that for both cutting the pieces and engraving or whether I could possibly get both a router and a laser engraver or get a small accurate router, basically, just trying to figure out the best solution for me. By the sounds of it, a router engraver will be more than enough for what I want to achieve but by the same token, I've realised that it's going to cost me a lot more than what I had in mind. And no, I'm not as anal as I think I lead you to believe :), wouldn't care if something was a few atoms out ;) just want it to look nice up close and of course that is a very subjective thing. I'm not talking about crazy machining here on a massive scale or insane precision. The end result which I will achieve and with which I'll be happy with is probably not as perfect as some of the other guys are able to and want to get their projects to.

It's just that on CNC zone, there aren't very many examples of the quality of the work that the home built routers can achieve, specifically to the precision that is required in some of the panel engraving.


I have acces to both a cnc and a laser unit so here is a little explanation.

I'm using both laser engraving en cnc engraving. CNC engraving also gives very good results. However it takes much more time to do it very fine. A laser does the same job in 30 seconds and the quality is better.


Out of curiosity, would you know the sort of accuracy (accuracy rating?) that the CNC router that did the flap gauge engraving would be? I'm guessing its a professional machine? Maybe a model name if it's not a secret?

[Wendy]

The flapgauge was engraved using a Colinbus Profiler CNC with a Kress router and without an engraving head (did'nt have one at that time). I think the accuracy is about 0,05 mm.

Regards, Wendy

[mefiu]

there aren't very many examples of the quality of the work that the home built routers can achieve?
My posts with links are moderated out, so I'll try this way around:
Take a look here what I was able to achieve with my home made MDF router:
forum.pl-vacc.org/viewtopic.php?f=91&t=27437&p=305072&hilit=kokpit+mefia#p305072
Now you can see some imperfections here (lack in paint cover, cut mishapes), but this is my first panel, I'm still learning my machine
and I know what was the cause of these problems and how to avoid them in future.
I'm happy like a baby with the quality/price ratio, because the cost of the machine was under 1000$ (including full electronics and Kress 1050 spindle).

Now: if you can afford laser - buy one. No question about it.
The quality you'll achieve will amaze you.
On the other hand, if your budget is limited, then buy/make a classic router, and enjoy your cockpit building as I do :)

[Atomic_Sheep]

The flapgauge was engraved using a Colinbus Profiler CNC with a Kress router and without an engraving head (did'nt have one at that time). I think the accuracy is about 0,05 mm.

Regards, Wendy

Ok thanks, will have a read about that router, hopefully it will clear up a few unknowns in my mind.

[Atomic_Sheep]

Take a look here what I was able to achieve with my home made MDF router:
forum.pl-vacc.org/viewtopic.php?f=91&t=27437&p=305072&hilit=kokpit+mefia#p305072


Hmm, that's definitely very good. I think I can say that I would basically be happy with that result.

Ok, thanks guys, a few things are a little bit clearer now. I think I have a better idea of what has to be done.

EDIT: Woops, forgot to chuck that into the other post.

[Hessel Oosten]

CNC

See Attachments

Hessel

Edit: Forgot to write that the difference in whiteness is due to the experimental differences in finding optimal engraving depth and not to errors.

[Atomic_Sheep]

That's the work of a router and not a laser right?

[mefiu]

See Attachments
More important: what is the height of the letters?

[Hessel Oosten]

Hi Atomic Sheep ....,

Yes it's a simple CNC router.

Hessel

@ mefiu: I do not understand why in a discusion about the possibilities of CNC in making letters (compared with laser) the height of the letters is or more importance than pictures which illustrate (i.m.h.o.) that making of crisp letters is possible with a conventional CNC router ?
But nevertheless, the height here was 3,2 mm (it's stated in the picture).

[mefiu]

@ mefiu: I do not understand why in a discusion about the possibilities of CNC in making letters (compared with laser) the height of the letters is or more importance than pictures which illustrate (i.m.h.o.) that making of crisp letters is possible with a conventional CNC router ?
Pictures may contain 20mm letters or 3.2mm letters, like yours.
When estimating router capabilities or limitations, one may want to know how small the letters could be, and that is really important when speaking about cockpit panels.
My point is: the pictures are worth a thousands words, but pictures with description about the sizes of objects drawn are even more valued.

But nevertheless, the height here was 3,2 mm
What bits do you use for engraving 3.2mm letters? Do you recon you can go any smaller than that?
I was able to make fine quality 4mm letters using 0.2mm/30degrees bit.
I've started to think about 0.1mm/20degrees bits, but heard the opposite opinions, that wider-degree bits can give more sharp and precise engravings.

[Hessel Oosten]

Most of my panels 0,3 mm ballnoses. Waste from the dentist.
Tell the toolpath genrator that is is ...0,25 mm, just to fill all the double contours.

Heard from a friend who uses 0,2 flat end mills with GOOD results.
Advantage of the flat end mill is, that when you don't have an engraving head differences in Z height are "not" visible in contrary to V shape cutters !

Hessel

[Perik]

Hello

Besides the topic discussed here I just want to show a few other
items which are doable on a Junk-based CNC or a $1000 China rig.

The gear has a diameter of 6mm!! and is a replacement for
a broken gear in a Nikon Camera and the PCB speaks for itself.

[Atomic_Sheep]

Thanks for the input guys, much appreciated. Certainly have helped a lot. My hope in DIY and cheapish routers has been restored.

[mefiu]

the PCB speaks for itself Indeed! :)
What bits did you use?

[Perik]

Hello mefiu

The PCB was run with a 60 degrees V-Cutter:
http://www.cnc-plus.de/Fraeser---Bohrer/Single-Flute-Engraving-Router-Bits.html

and the gear 0,3mm endmill.

Happy milling.....

[super2277]

I have acces to both a cnc and a laser unit so here is a little explanation.

I'm using both laser engraving en cnc engraving. CNC engraving also gives very good results. However it takes much more time to do it very fine. A laser does the same job in 30 seconds and the quality is better.

You can buy a good cnc for around 2000 euro and add some for a good engraving nose (that is a must) and you can start engraving.

A laser 30 Watt will cost you around 10.000 euro and in addition you will also need airfiltering units.

I also asked prices to some professional laser engraving companies, but that is far beyond what I want to pay for engraving a panel.

The first picture is done with cnc engraving, the next 2 are laser engraved.

Regards, Wendy


http://www.querit.eu/FS/Engraving/FlapGauge_2Needles.JPG

http://www.querit.eu/FS/Engraving/Laser_LandingGear_Close.jpg

http://www.querit.eu/FS/Engraving/Laser_MainPaneldus.jpg
are CO2 laser 20-30 W over 10 000 euro? is it a joke?

[geneb]

I paid $17,000USD in 2006 for my 45 Watt Epilog Mini-24. (24x12 bed).

You can get MUCH cheaper (and MUCH more poorly supported) CO2 laser engraving systems from China.

For doing the _best_ edge-lit panels possible, you really should use a YAG laser based system - it has much better depth control.

g.

[aVaTar]

I figured I'd resurrect this thread :)
Together with a fellow sim builder we purchased the 3020 CNC of ebay for $800 AUD.
With intention of milling overhead panels to begin with and whatever else that is required.
And so far, I'm very impressed with the machine. It routes out letters 2.7mm in height without any problems and will go much smaller!
I'm not sure why people critique this kind of CNC, probably because it's not strong for metals etc, but for plastics, wood it's perfect.
Here're some videos of the process:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FU1R_7k5SE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfmkTYOZ7bU
and actual cutting process:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUmgrMR-EO0

I'll post some photos of the overhead panels later.

[paulnd]

I also have 3020 CNC and I'm very happy with it, could you provide more details of the bit you're using, material used for panel etc?

[aVaTar]

Material is just white acrylic, spray painted(FS36118) from can. 4.5mm thick.

For cutting, I'm using a 2mm, 1 flute endmill. I found that single flute gives much much! better results compared to the 2 flute ones. 2 flute was a ruined panel, 1 flute - a perfect result. Possibly the plunge/feed rate can be adjusted for the 2 flute one, donno.. didn't bother with it anymore, but I'd 100% recommend 1 flute.

For engraving - 0.2mm V bit, nothing to it really :) . Engraving depth of 0.1mm - 0.15mm
I do use this amazing autolevelling application - www.autoleveller.co.uk. And it's free! I don't even connect a probe, just measure 4 corners of the plastic before engraving and that gives a great consistent engraving result across whole area. Otherwise, it's quite common for work piece to be off by more than 0.1mm across 300mm length. Even a spec of dust(from previous cutting) could be sufficient.

[paulnd]

thanks for the information, I recently discovered autoleveller but haven't used it yet

[Live2Fly]

Hi Wendy,
First off, I think these panels came out excellent, congrats on some professional looking panels!

I know this thread is almost over 6 months old, but I have a quick question. I'm looking to do pretty much the same thing you are doing but I want to create some panels for my C172 cockpit I'm getting ready to build.

The gauge in the first image that you said was CNC engraved, did you also make the gauge itself? If you did what type of material did you use? I was thinking of using black acrylic for the bezel and gauge faces that needs multiple color (ASI for example) and then print out and apply a decal of the actual gauge face. Anything that was a single color, white for example could be painted and then through the CNC process, it should expose the white text underneath (or whatever underlying color was chosen.)


Thanks for taking the time to read this!

I have acces to both a cnc and a laser unit so here is a little explanation.

I'm using both laser engraving en cnc engraving. CNC engraving also gives very good results. However it takes much more time to do it very fine. A laser does the same job in 30 seconds and the quality is better.

You can buy a good cnc for around 2000 euro and add some for a good engraving nose (that is a must) and you can start engraving.

A laser 30 Watt will cost you around 10.000 euro and in addition you will also need airfiltering units.

I also asked prices to some professional laser engraving companies, but that is far beyond what I want to pay for engraving a panel.

The first picture is done with cnc engraving, the next 2 are laser engraved.

Regards, Wendy


http://www.querit.eu/FS/Engraving/FlapGauge_2Needles.JPG

http://www.querit.eu/FS/Engraving/Laser_LandingGear_Close.jpg

http://www.querit.eu/FS/Engraving/Laser_MainPaneldus.jpg

[Wendy]

I made the gauge completely from acrylic including gears. If you cannot do the engraving you can also print on plastic paper, ask the copy shop and they will help you out.

Regards,wenDy

[Live2Fly]

Awesome! That's what I was hoping you did.

Thanks!