Starting to build a 737(NGx) cockpit

[killerbee1958]

Dear All,

Since the FS weekend here in the netherlands i have become interested in building my home cockpit.
Now i don't have the money around to do it all at once so i will have to build it in steps.:p

From reading for two weeks i now have concluded i need to make choices.

First easy choice was: Which aircraft type: SInce the 737 has a lot of hardware builders i quickly decided it would be a 737.
Next choice is WHICH 737. Since i already own the 737NGx and i love the amount of detail in its code the choice was made to develop a pit capable of working with PMDG's 737NGx.

Next choice is what to buy first. Since i already have a very capable pc running fsx with 737Ngx with eyefinity setup (5760x1080) i believe the first things to buy now are a MCP and captains EFIS.

Now here is where things become complicated.

I want to buy them and use them without them being fitted into a cockpit frame yet. (that is something to be bought later)
But i can't figure out:

1. Which hardware MCP's and EFIS works with 737Ngx/Fsx combo?
2. What additional software do i need? (registered version FSUIPC, SIOC, Linda, 737NGx SDK?).

The idea here is to install the mcp and efis and instead of clicking on my buttons in the VC the hardware MCP and EFIS functions and will be used to operate my 737Ngx while flying.

I have asked the same question btw in the PMDG's 737NGx forum. Any advice is highly appreciated

[Geremy Britton]

Of course the first step is research, the next step is some more research and you can guess the 3rd step. Once you've done those steps you need to decide what sort of realism factore you want, and the degree to which you want to replicate the real thing. This of course carries a correlation to the cost you want to spend.

Just take things slow, on my humble opinion i would focus on the build before the software, but that's just me. I know Prosim seems to be the leading software at the moment which allows you to display the relevant guages for the 737. I beleive this may work with the next 737 NGX but again you'll have to research this.

I would certainly recommend FSUIPC as a good start point as you rightly pointed out.

I look forward to seeing your progress! :) :)

[killerbee1958]

Geremy,

thanks for your considerations. As far as i can see i have been doing the research, the research and the research. But i also know that one has start to act also someday otherwise it all will remain research without an end.

I thought i had explained some of the choices already made. I want a total immersion with a cockpit as if in real. this means operating the plane with applicable switches/buttons and no clicking on the screen anymore.
Now i do understand that this is something that will take time. For now i estimate a 5 years project with a 25 K euro budget. (just estimating no real planning here).


If you feel i am still going too fast please say so. I am very interested in learning from the experience people who have gone down this route before.

Also i am looking for advice as too which type of hardware (and software) i need to start with. And off course this all needs to be future proof (whatever that future is)

At the moment i envision a path where i build
1 The MCP/EFIS combo (just as loose boxes on my ordinary desk)
2. A MIP with the PFD/ND
3. Extend the MIP with FMC/EICAS/landing gear and buttons and switches
4. A throttle quandrant (motorized as i want the autopilot to move the throttles in flight)
5. A pedestal
6. Gradually install the different parts of the pedestal (com/nav's/fire/ident etc)
7 A overhead

Probably will start with a captain side only but would keep the option open to extend the cockpit to F/O side.



As you also mention i like to take it slow and therefore my idea is to start with a MCP/EFIS as this will immediately enhance my flying experience and also introduce me into the wonderfull world of programming/interfacing knobs/switches into FSx.

So to repeat the original question

Would buying the opencockpit MCP/EFIS be a good start for my project?

[Geremy Britton]

I would certainly suggest an MCP would be a good first purchase. Perhaps a christmas present? :) I haven't taken a look at the B737NGX software yet so i'm not sure what manufacturers parts will be compatible. 5 years time frame is a really good realistic goal, and if you're waiting around for a couple of months sometimes for the right part to come at the right price, and if your doing some of the work yourself this is a good target.

With regard to future proof i would always look for USB parts, some of the older things which are serial connection certainly won't be future proof. It seems the USB connection isn't going anywhere anytime soon and will work with whatever flight sim program appears next over the coming decade.

Hope that helps.

[notgotaclue]

One thing you have not mentioned is the control column.
I have the ACE Yoke, which is amazing. I am not sure I would pay full price for it but for what I paid as part of a bundle on Ebay I am more than happy.
As for buying the MCP & EFIS first, if thats what you want to do then why not.
That's what I bought first along with an Opencockpits multi-radio. The problem I had was they got easily bashed about and wandered all over the desk when I pressed the buttons - especially the EFIS. They were also too low and I couldn't be bothered to build a frame for them whenI knew I was looking for a MIP in the near future.
I now have the Fly Engravity whole set. Once again I got them as part of the bundle and would not have paid full price for them.
Allan.

[Goldmember]

Welcome Killerbee, I went to the same process in 2008/2009 after a visit to FSWeekend. Opencockpits have nice products but be prepared to do a lot of soldering and programming yourself. If you're no computer- or electronics expert, you might want to choose for plug & play brands. The same applies for your mechanical knowledge and tools that you have.

Your planning and budget is realistic. I'm about 1/3 after 2,5 years but I do things slowly on a tight budget (lot of scratch building). A multi radio, an MCP and an EFIS is the best start.

About the MIP, if you're planning to buy the panels, it's not much extra work to build a stand to put it on. If you put it on a normal table, it will be too high. And I would go for the full kit, captain and F/O. It's much more fun to have somebody beside you, who might be willing to help you with the build. This is what I do together with my best friend Kinsky (http://www.mycockpit.org/forums/member.php/5550-kinsky).

I partly agree with Geremy, 2x times researching should be enough and then: just do it. Surely you'll make mistakes but there will be problems you can't foresee anyway. Always keep in mind that if you spend an evening or weekend adding something to your sim, you must be able to fly when you're finished.

Feel free to drop me a PM in Dutch if you want to see my sim. I live 45 minutes from R'dam and you're welcome to see my pit if you want.

[killerbee1958]

Hello Allan,
You are absolutly right. A proper control column (i called it yoke) is part of the program. Not high on the list however. First thing to get working is the MIP with glareshield than throttle,then pedestal, then overhead and last but certainly not least the control column.

I have at least again some thoughts for birthday/christmas and some other days presents.

[killerbee1958]

Hello Arjen,

Thanks for your offer. I think i will take you up on that one. Got some other good responses today (not all via this forum) and it seems that buying the opencockpit mcp/efis is a good idea but i do see the point allan is making.
Having them lying around on the desk and pushing the switches will probably bash them around. So some fixing is to de developed.

I think you are right about the fun of a dual sided config and i didn't say i would not build it, it just is something i can add when the captain side is working first.
All in due time

I will contact you for the visit

[sboons]

Hi,

I also starter building my pit in 2008. With a tight budget i have choosen to build most things myself. See my site (was down so i am rebuilding it) on www.737ng.nl

For display an external program is a musthave. I started with sim-avionics and spent a lot of money for the license. When prosim737.com showed up i put sim-a away. Prosim is really great. You have many software options and they are about to bring their own Plane like pmdg.

That brings my question: why pmdg? When you build your cockpit, the only important thing is flight dynsmics and s good external app like prosim. Mcp etc is talking to prosim and prosim talks to fsx.
An advise is not to hang too tightto pmdg, just good compatible hardware. Oc is a good choise.

You can also contact me in dutch for more info. I live in maassluis, near rdam.

Grts
Steef

[claushansen]

Hi

Just my few cents.

Background search before investing is essential. There are a lot of different vendors, but some are very slow in making drivers for the SIM you want to use.

I'm using OC products, and iFly. They fit perfect together, but it's like religion, I have also been a big fan of PMDG, but have decided to stay with FS2004, due to performance issue.

You can spend very long time to get HW and SW to work together !

I have spent a year (only left seat) and are now trying making the overhead lights to work

Regards
Claus
www.737sim.dk

[killerbee1958]

All,

Thanks for all the input.
The reference to the sites where you have made all your experiences available is very usefull.

First steps have been taken by now.
I ordered the christmas special mcp/efis combo from opencockpits and have found a friend (thanks arjen for that tip) who is brilliant in wood carving and handling and who will be helping me in making the base for the mip.

First action is to get the OC MCP/EFIS working with the PMDG NGx. I found a thread where people got the devices to work direct with pmdg's 737ngx through sioc. So this will get me knowledgable on sioc.

In parallel my friend will start building the base and i will start clearing the room to get myself some space. :-)

Steef and Arjen i will be visiting you sometime in the new year to learn from your expierences. Thanks for the offer.

I will keep you all posted on my progress but not so beautifull as claus has done with his website
(I am in IT myself but lack the skills and time to do it so thouroughly)

Happy new year

[bas_v]

Hi Killerbee,

Interesting to read about your plans, a while ago I also decided on building a home cockpit. I also went with the 737NG because of the availability of products. Since I want to do more flying than building/programming/etc, I'll go with the OC MCP and EFIS first, too.

Currently I am spicing up the old pIV I have with some new video hardware and an Eyefinity setup (2x22"). I was wondering how Eyefinity is working for you and if you would be willing to post a picture of your setup at the moment?

I am using X-plane 9 and XHSI for PFD/ND/EICAS/etc by the way.

Cheers!

[killerbee1958]

Hello Bas,

I am very pleased with the eyefinity setup i have at the moment.
I am running a 3 x ilyama e2409hds as main monitor for out of the window (and at the moment also for the vc) in 5760 x 1080i and a separate ilyama e2407-hds as a fourth screen attached to a radeon HD6970 2Gb videoadapter.
I can run fsx windowed on my triple screen in VC and still reach 10+ fps at eham with aerosoft scenery and the pmdg 737NGx.
At FL370 (or in fact anywhere in flight without too dense scenery) i get 40 + fps with clear skies dropping to 25 + fps with complex clouds as generated by AS2012.
The rig is a i2500K running at 4.4 Ghz and a 128Gb ssd for os and a separte 128Gb for FSx.

Although i am very happy to run all this on this one rig i have started to offload fsc/as2012/efb and other flight related utilities to another pc and that way i gain anohter 2-4 fps for running fsx full screen (this however will disable the fourth screen).

Mind you this is with fsx gold (incl accelaration) and running a very sophisticated addon like pmdg's 737NGx.
I have not tried X-plane 9 in this config.
For FSx and demanding addon aircraft and scenery a pIV might be a bit underdesigned i would guess.

But as far as i can see a triple monitor on a hd6970 has no ill effects on your fs performance (but take care ymmv) :-)

i don't know how to attach pictures in this message but if you sent me a pb i will happily sent you one but then i advise you to enter eyefinity in you tube and you will get many hits showing you what it is like not even in a still picture but with running apps.

One last remark. Home cockpit building requires patience/endurance/skills/money. My research sofar has learnt me there is no easy way to do it. Prepare yourself for a demanding, yet very rewarding long term effort to build your cockpit. One of the people that have gone done our road long before us stated " you will never be finished' and i guess he is right.

Please note there are already quiete some knowleagable people in the netherlands. I for one have already found more beside arjan and steef who reacted on this forum.
Have for instance a look also at dutchfs.nl forum where foofighter has a very nice thread where he is showing how he managed to build a very good looking cockpit at reasonable cost by doing much of the work himself.

Have fun building and let's keep each other updated of our progress. There is much to be learned i guess from the other (and as mentioned the many that have gone down this path)

[bas_v]

Hi Bart, thank you for your information. I understand that a lot of cockpit builders use FSX/FS 2004. As I started out with a MacBook Pro, I went with X-plane. Biggest drawback is the (lack of) detailed scenery I guess. I am using the x737 plugin from the people at http://eadt.eu which is a great plugin.

For now, I want to have a reasonable setup with 2x 22" (Eyefinity) and some smaller 15" monitors for PFD and ND (possibly offloaded to a Zotac 1.6 ATOM pc). I might buy an OC EFIS, a yoke and throttle quadrant from CH Products, but then, it's saving up for the FlyEngravity desktop MIP I guess.

For all the different modules, I really like the OC products, mainly because of pricing as I can't say much about the products themselves since I don't have any yet (the MCP is on its way though). I think they allow for a faster quality experience because of price. I am not looking for a 1:1 replica of the real thing, ideally I'd like to achieve a fairly realistic setup without having a 2nd mortgage.... In my opinion this means buying more goodies for less money (e.g. a fairly realistic MCP with its shortcomings instead of a 1:1 replica that costs 3 times as much).

All good comes to those who wait ;)

I second your statement that we should have fun building and learn from each other. Life's just too short to re-invent the wheel!

[Daveanne]

Well done to you, and look forward to seeing how you get on.

For building on a budget, have a look at my URL www.G-HOLT.co.uk

Its using 2004, but the principles are the same.

Good luck with 737NGX, I have just upgraded to a new desktop with Win 7 FSX and NGx all running on an i7 @4.7 Ghz, on an Asus P8P67 Pro board, 16GB of memory and 2 x XFX Radeon HD 6970's (2 Gb each), all working nice a smooth.

However could also do with some advice on installing it into my Pit to replace XP and 2004?

Any offers, does NGX work with MCP's etc?

Daveanne

[killerbee1958]

Well done to you, and look forward to seeing how you get on.


Any offers, does NGX work with MCP's etc?

Daveanne

Your craftsmanship is impressive.
I enjoyed reading your site and i can see how you managed to build against a reasonable budget.
I won't go that way. First of all i lack the skills required to build many of the stuff myself, secondly i do not have the time so i will be more busy assembling the factory available and bought stuff.

As for operating the mcp with the NGX, this is not a easy thing to achieve.
Please read my progress over here
http://forum.avsim.net/topic/350572-opencockpit-mcp-with-pmdx-737ngx-ready/

I really hope pmdg can release the sdk soon and this will ease things. I have no problem diving into the programming of sioc but again time is limited so i might at one stage abandon ngx and go with IFly. But not ready yet. I still feel NGx is the best 737 sim around at this moment

Fred

[kultman]

I'm at the same stage as you, maybe a small step ahead on your points 1 and 2. I absolutely wanted the Revolution Simproducts Motorized Throttle Quadrant, so I bought that last year (waited forever and half an ice age for it to turn up)... They just started selling products from other vendors, and I decides to buy the CPFlight's MCP and EFIS Pro - nice looking hardware... :) And in that same order I got the Engravity CDU...
I'm a software developer by trade - and I have a hard time getting things to work! :) A little more 'plug & play' would be nice...

I'm waiting for the PMDG SDK to be released, and for hardware vendors to make drivers for my hardware - patience is my friend (I keep reminding myself of that)
I'm thinking that all the software packages may be obsolete if the hardware can talk to PMDG's model - only having PMDG and the hardware with easy-to-setup drivers would be perfect! But I'm at a standstill at the moment also - what's next? I fear that will be my question the next 10 years... :)
So now I'm looking into how to build some of the shell, the MIP and windows maybe - just to get a sence of forward motion...

So good luck there killerbee - we all need a bit of that... :)

https://www.facebook.com/#!/groups/259490551844/

[killerbee1958]

Dan

Seems good luck is on my path.
I managed to have the mcp and efis combo from Opencockpits to work with my PMDG NGx.
I also noted in the vatsim forum that the sdk is about to be released (rsn).

So time to start buiding the mip base and think about which mip hardware panel i would like to order.

I tried to run the mcp/efis on the ifly 737 and although it was easier to get the boxes to work it was uncomfortable since the operating of switches etc in the vc of the ifly is just different.

So as said i too look forward to the sdk as this will probably ease the way we will interface with all the other switches and not to mention the possibility to control pfd/nd's from another pc

[killerbee1958]

hello Daveann

The soon to be released SDK should make it possible to interface more equipment to the NGx but as of now i have the Opencockpit MCP and captain EFIS working smoothly with NGx.
This is all the work of a Roar K.
For details please see the PMDG 737NGx forum

[Goldmember]

Did you manage to get the dual EFIS to work? I tried it at the start of my build with PMDG but I could not display captain and F/O independently.

[killerbee1958]

Did you manage to get the dual EFIS to work? I tried it at the start of my build with PMDG but I could not display captain and F/O independently.

Hello Arjen,

Sorry but i only have the mcp and the captain efis so not able to answer your request.

I have read however somewhere that this is something that is a bit of a problem anyway with two OC EFIS modules (apart from the ngx).
Will try to look it up tonight

[killerbee1958]

Oke time for a update.

I haven't been sitting still but as mentioned at the start much of the work is reading reading and reading again.

Sofar the OC MCP and EFIS are working nicely on the pmgd NGX but from all the reading i have learned i probably have to go with PRO-SIM in the future. So be it

I still am a bit struggling with which MIP panels to buy.
Either i go with the Engravity captain/center/fo panels or with the simworld complete mip with frame and on top the sismo glarewings/shields. There is a thread here on mycockpit.org from Jumbo0 that shows how well this could work out and the cost of this is indeed much lower than the engravity stuff.

Also i know from Jumbo0 that the OC MCP and EFIS will fit in the simworld mip but i stil have questions whether or not this two will fit in the engravity (if not that adds another 1500 euro's to the bill)

So some reading to do but i will definitely order the mip real soon now

I decided to postpone building the mip base until the mip is in. THat way i will be sure the size of the base will fit the mip.

Also will start visiting some other cockpit builders in the netherlands soon. I noticed btw that there are a fair amount of dutch guys into cockpit builders

Funny people these dutch guys :-)

[ohsirus]

I would look at Iflys Cockpit Builder Version Also, very nice suite.

[hark40]

Hello,

Take a look to Zeineddine project http://www.mycockpit.org/forums/showthread.php/22863-My-Simworld-MIP-Panel-Full-Kit-(Advanced)-Arrived?highlight=sismo... He will inform you about what you need to know.

He found a very nice solution very similar to that you said of Jumboo Cockpit, a mix of Sismo Electronic MIP Modules and Glareshield and SimWorld MIP Structure.

Best Regards,

[killerbee1958]

Hello,

Take a look to Zeineddine project ,

Thanks. that was indeed very helpfull. I really like the solution of zeineddine for the attachement of the sismo shields to the base mip.

I am currently investigating whether i can have simworld deliver this plate in the mip material and colour.

[killerbee1958]

I would look at Iflys Cockpit Builder Version Also, very nice suite.

I know. It might indeed be an option. I ordered the simworld mip and sismo glarewing/shields today so first now to assemble the mip then the base then the wiring then ....

I will have i guess at least another 3 months before having to make a choice.
I am keeping my fingers crossed that the pmdg sdk will enable me to use the pmdg 737ngx,

If not at that time i will decide on prosim or ifly

[freddehboy]

Hi

I am in a project to build a 737ngx cockpit but not the MIP, since I have not the space for it yet!

I have the PMDG737NGX and I want to use the 737ngx cockpit together with some hardware panels and stuff. I already have:
VrInsight MCP combo
VrInright CDUII

The next parts are:
737ng overhead:
I know I can program the all switches and leds through FSUIPC so I will build and use the Opencockpits stuff a full (90%) product
list bellow and question to it:

http://www.opencockpits.com/catalog/elec-system-display-p-312.html

1
It´s look like that the product is included in the components kit bellow, is not it?

http://www.opencockpits.com/catalog/panels-overhead-color-p-272.html

2
I investing in panels for future upgrade like gauges and so. Is there any frame for the panel´s?

http://www.opencockpits.com/catalog/overhead-indicators-with-leds-p-295.html
http://www.opencockpits.com/catalog/overhead-components-p-165.html

3
See question 1!


http://www.opencockpits.com/catalog/largue-switch-white-p-323.html
http://www.opencockpits.com/catalog/usb-lcd-card-p-35.html
http://www.opencockpits.com/catalog/master-card-p-29.html
4
Is the 45 digital outputs for the leds?

http://www.opencockpits.com/catalog/expansion-card-p-37.html


Yoke and throttle will be build later and by my own style!

So take a look and then comments :)

Fredrik

[killerbee1958]

HI Frederik

I am sorry to tell you i do not have the required knowledge (yet) to comment on your choices.
The stuff you are looking at is the overhead. I am not there yet so i have not investigated enough to tell you whether or not these are the right choices.

There are other threads here and in other fora probably that will help you more

Once again sorry i can't be of more assistance

[killerbee1958]

Today the first delivery arrived.
The sismo stuff was delivered on my doorstep by UPS. In fact this is a rather small package

http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/8241/p1010229l.jpg

These guys from sismo surely know how to carefully and properly pack a shipment, Someone must have deserved a price on using as much tape as possible. Inside the box more packaging material like foam and aircushions were used. That package could have dropped 2 meters and i guess nothing would have been damaged still.

What was a pleasent surprise was that the glareshield/wings/annunciators and sixpack were already assembled for captains and fo side. Having read this can be a bit of a hazzle to assemble i was happy to have it delivered pre assembled. (without having to ask for it)

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/4776/p1010231p.jpg
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/1858/p1010232g.jpg

The master caution and fire warn annunciators are firmly fixed but the sixpack is just resting on its bulbs and came off during unpacking. They were easily reattached but i have to check if this construction is sturdy enough once the mip is placed in its final position. To be checked later.

All that remains as far as i can see now is to attach the supplied cables

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/2585/p1010234l.jpg

Below a close up of both glareshields/wings
http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/5381/p1010235i.jpg
http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/268/p1010236re.jpg

Last but not least the landing gear lever was also included in this delivery
http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/7402/p1010233tj.jpg

There isn't much i can do with the stuff at the moment. i am still waiting for the MIP panels from simworld to arrive. However the start is here. I will post later some images from sketchup for the mip base i intend to build. Due to a system restore i do not have these available at this moment.

I will also investigate the possibilty to set up a website where my progress can be followed. But for i have to wait until the mip arrives.
I'll keep you posted guys

[freddehboy]

Hi

I am look for a singel captain side mip!

Just the panels for it not the whole stand//
Best Fredrik

[killerbee1958]

That should not be a problem.
There are a few different suppliers of prefab mips
simworld.pl
sismosoluciones.com
flyengravity.com

With all three you can order either captain side only, center side and f/o side.
You will want the captain and center section as a minimum

However there is a lot to be said for building your own panels. (and only buy the panels with engraving on them.
So what is it you look for then?

Start reading the many different threads here and on also look on this webpage

http://www.flightsimparts.eu/Simulator_Links.html

There is so much info available. Please be more precise if you require any assistance

[freddehboy]

Hi

I am planning to build a flightdeck with the help of Simworld and Sismo Soluciones:
Accept from the units I allready own, I will buy:
The mip, captain and center console from Simworld with the components kits!

Overheaden will be from Sismo .... and also the landing gear!

Throttle:
I am not sure what I will buy but the alternative are:
Throttle from JetMax by FDS
Revolution Simproducts silverline throttle
Throttletek G-737

Can anyone tell me how secure there is to buy from Sismo... and from Simworld?

I am prefer not to pay all the money in advance!

My goal is to have the PMDG737NGX as a basesystem, but this won´t be a problem since all the stuff supports bt fsuipc!

Best Fredrik

[fsaviator]

I can tell you that Sismo is excellent to work with. No issues at all. I have less experience with Simworld, but for the couple of things I bought from them, also no issues.

[freddehboy]

Hi

That sounds great :)

What problem can I expect in fsuipc and PMDG 737ngx when I am building a setup like thise?

Fredrik

[freddehboy]

Hi

I have mybe decided to build even cheaper with plug & play ready stuff like saitek div.... panels and so on.... :)

I am wonderinf if there are some products who can replacing the expensive annuciators like saitek Backlight Information Panel ..... I need a unit who has all the led as the real mip has, can I find such a product?

Best Fredrik

[killerbee1958]

Just a quick update on my progress

Almost finished assembling the MIP. just a few switches to fit and waiting for some replacement parts from simworld.

http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/3384/p1010345y.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/840/p1010345y.jpg/)

[OmniAtlas]

Has anyone looked at the Jetmax series by FDS? http://www.jetmax.ca/packages/jetmax-737k

I am interested in the 2/3 MIP version -- by the time you add up the electronics by flyengravity and other 3rd parties I believe they become pretty similar in price. I'm more interested in actually flying the darn thing then spending all this time constructing it, and learning all the electronics only to find out it doesn't work out as planned. At least with FDS you know you are getting a working product, its integrated, and I heard they have good support.

Perhaps when I save up in a year or two that will be the way I'm going. In the mean time, the purchases I hope to make before then and in order --

1. Throttle
2. MCP+EFIS
3. CDU

That should complete the 'hey mom, look no mouse'

Then --

4. JetMax MIP
5. Radio stack

That could be done in a budget about $5000 - $6000 , which I think is highly doable for a 2-3 year project. Anyone have any other thoughts?

[killerbee1958]

Has anyone looked at the Jetmax series by FDS? http://www.jetmax.ca/packages/jetmax-737k


That could be done in a budget about $5000 - $6000 , which I think is highly doable for a 2-3 year project. Anyone have any other thoughts?



I have been looking at the jetmax solution also and i do indeed believe they offer excellent service. They now have a representative in Berlin which i found to answer honestly and very proactively my questions. I also have seen the captain side set up last november during the fs weekend in november 2011.

I must admit i was very tempted to buy the jetmax sktq solution at once (with the throttle and mcp and efis, all at once).
Why didn't i do it?
First of all because i believe that building is part of the fun.
By setting things up yourself and finding out how to interface your hardware to the software i will gain valuable experience once in the future things shouldn't work.
Secondly because i decided to go for as real as it can get and a motorized throttle is in my opinion (but mind you this is very subjective) a must have. Jetmax makes it clear they believe in afforable systems (and right they are) in which case a non motorized is more sensible (and so they only deliver non motorized throttle).
Third is, i wanted the option to complete my pit with lower pedestal,overhead, f/o side etc. Jetmax states they will probably expand their offering in the future but no clear roadmap is present at the time.

So your question is very valid. The jetmax solution looks like a very afforable and out of the box (well not exactly off course, you still need to assemble) solution. But once you expand beyond their setup you still need to investigate yourself and interface and program yourself. If you do not have the time and are willing to wait until they offer, go for their solution by all means (imho). I have seen the setup (you could visit berlin and check for yourself) and their cockpit looks sturdy and very close to the real thing (mind you, i do see differences but they are small).

Just one question you should ask yourself and jetmax. Which flightmodel do you want to use (for instance i am very keen on using the pmdg 737Ngx and i do not know if jetmax supports this one already).

Good luck in your search for answers

[OmniAtlas]

I will probably go for the prosim737, and/or the pmdg 737ngx. The NGX is now supported by jetmax.

My only concerns with buying with other companies is I am unsure which parts I need as it is not documented (is it ever?!). At least with JetMax you know what you're getting, and their support is superb. I need a quick add-to cart with flyengravity to compare with jetmax. Cost comes up to 3000 euros including the EFIS and MCP, so flyengravity might be the alternative. However, I had to pick 14 different items, and I'm still not sure if the set is complete (see below)! I am also unsure what level of electronic wiring is needed with flyengravity; with JetMax I heard it is plug and play.

FlyEngravity 2/3 MIP Complete?
=======================
737 MCP PRO
AFDS module
Master Caution Switch
MIP desktop Center panel kit
MIP desktop Captains panel kit
737 Landing gear lever
SIXPACK recall annunciator for Captain side
Bracket for MCP / EFIS PRO modules
EFIS PRO
Electronic kit for desktop captain panel
Electronic kit for desktop center panel
EPB backlightpanels upgrade kit
MIP interface board
Fire Warning Switch

[killerbee1958]

I really can't help you here. I have been looking into flyengravity but decided to go for stuff from simworld and sismo.
As far as i can see your list looks complete to me. You might want to skip the backlightpanels upgrade kit just for now to safe money but fair enough if you want to compare it to the jetmax then you should include it since the jetmax has backlighting also.

The engravity stuff doesn't include the wiring. But then the wiring should cost euro's so do not add much to the overall bill.

Keep in mind that in all cases you will still need to add the lcd display(s) for captain side (19 inch) and center panel (eicas, 11 or 12 inch display).

Again if it just the price then the jetmax package is a excellent package. If they now support the 737NGx even better. But don't think this is plug and play also. I just noticed it comes with a 30 page installation manual. But it probably will assemble much easier then any own built cockpit (be it simworld/engravity/sismo/open cockpits or whatever).

So for what it is worth, your package seems complete enough to make a comparision ((i think).

For your info.
The simworld captain and f/o side mip panels with frame and electronics and switches come in at about 1300 euro.
The sismo glarewings and shields with sixpacks and annunciators for captain and f/o side and landing gear lever come in at about 900 euro.
The opencockpit mcp and efis came in (special christmas offer last year) at about 500 euro's.
To properly compare it against the jetmax i should also add a base (i will be building that one myself from mdf) which will add another 200 euro's for wood and paint etc.
The to add the cdu (i will probably buy the "expensive" flyengravity cdu) i have to add anothe 900 euro. And the also a interface card at about 200 euro
Total 4000 euro. (but this is for a DUAL seat config (captain and F/0).
This compares to the jetmax 737sk which is stated at $ 5495 (say 5000 euro if i compare it to the euro price of the 737sktq).

BUT BUT BUT BUT BUT

I have nowhere here the price of the many hours i will need to spent getting my cockpit up and running (both in assembling the panels, switches, leds etc and the no doubt countless hours i will need to spent configuring my hardware to work with whatever software i will use in the future (prosim or pmdg's 737 NGx).
Don't underestimate this effort and frustration. If you want to be up and flying in no time and do not want to be bothered by this interfacing stuff then jetmax is the way to go (however bear in mind this is also no PLUG and PLAY excercise. But i guess their support will smoothen out a lot of the work.

Hope this helps in making your own decision about what is right in your case.

[OmniAtlas]

Hi Killerbee, did you e-mail me documents the simworld MIP construction? If so, thanks, they are very helpful :)

I love the flyengravity glarewings; they look fantastic and very realistic IMHO.

I've done a quick addup for parts with simworld.pl to compare --

1 x MIP annunciators set (full)
1 x MIP Panel electronic components set (full)
1 x Main Instruments Panel (full) with metal frame - Advanced Line

This is for a full pannel set and comes up to 1000 euro excluding the landing gear, ?back lighting, glarewings/shield, and EFIS/MCP frame. I have no idea what else is missing -- I wish these companies would bring out complete sets to make our lives a little easier.

I also found out the Flyengravity panels don't include the lower panel for light flooding/control -- this makes the cockpit incomplete!

Again, the company hasn't put much information online about the wiring -- what I/O cards do I need? Do I need to solder? Etc.

[killerbee1958]

Oke the parts you have gathered will get you the full mip (captina and F/O) as seen in my latest picture. That is what i have bought also. There is indeed no wiring and no iocards included. Wiring one can get at any hardware store and io-cards is your own chooice. What io-cards you will want to use depends on which path you will take. I am currently investigating my options also. There are leo bodhars cards, sismo ethernet cards, open cockpit io cards. All have their pro's and con's and it will take reading, reading, reading, thinking, reading and thinking again to come to a conclusion.

Also keep in mind that with the simworld stuff you do not have the glarewings, shields,captain and f/o master caution and firewaring and sixpacks yet. They can not be ordered from simworld. You either go to flyengravity or sismo again to buy these parts.
And then these do not come with wiring either so here you need more wiring and to check which interface card will handle these switches and annunciatiors. And indeed you will need to solder every single wire to every single switch and led and correctly route that to the iocard. Take a look at Jumbo00's thread in this section. He has a made pictures also of his progress and there is a picture of his wiring in the back of the mip.
Complex? yeah maybe a little but once you get to understand it, it is fun also.

You wonder why companies don't bring oout complete sets? Well in fact there is a company who understood this and filled the gap: Jetmax. There you could order the 737sktq and have all pre assembled delivered at your doorstep. It says on their website they also have representatives in asia/pacific. Maybe worth a try to get into contact with them?

Do'n't worry to much about the backlighing yet. For engravity this is something that could easily be added later. But once again jetmax has it all included.
Take your time to carefully think it over. I think cockpit building can be very rewarding but also time consuming. If electronics and programming are not your cup of tea, forget about it.
If it is,embark with me and many others on a journey where there is lots of help (as on this forum) but prepare yourself for some setbacks, wrong chooices and wasted money:p
But the reward once you have it all working can be worth it. And if in the future something brakes you will know what to fix (and this could be a problem with a completly pre build installation from jetmax)

[OmniAtlas]

I've been in touch with Filip at simworld and he mentions that they sell compatible glarewings -- I can't find it on the website so I have asked him to send me a photo, or direct me to the correct url.

It seems strange that Jetmax is the only one filling this void -- I could see a bigger market (and more competition driving down prices!) if the other companies also manage to bring together a one stop solution. Part of your cash you part with to Jetmax probably trickles down to their service.

Yes that is correct, I don't have much time as I am a busy professional and just want things to work so I have more time enjoying the product! Imagine when I have kids in a few years, then it will get really crazy :)

[OmniAtlas]

Just one more thing to add -- check out this blog http://www.flaps2approach.com/

Excellent website on his 737 build using FDS,

[killerbee1958]

Oke it has been quiet for some time. As during summer i have other outdoor activities i prefer my building project has been suspended but now it is time to start again.

Two weeks ago i have put the dremel into my brand new simworld mip to cut off the top part to enable mounting of the plate where the glarewings/shields and efis/mpro will be fit to.
A bit scary but i am very pleased with the end result.

Last weekend i started the build of the base (from mdf) and i finished with the base complete. Next part will be the cdu bay.

See below the picture for what it looks like now

http://imageshack.us/a/img267/6429/p1010454xz.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/267/p1010454xz.jpg/)

[bussgarfield]

Hi, killerbee1958, it has been some time since we spoke but I am watching your progress with much interest. Like you I have been away from my sim construction for a while but I now have screw driver and hammer in my hands again to carry on where I left off. You will soon be catching me up at this rate. EFIS and MCP still working fine with the NGX. Next step will be the CDU.

I have decided to carry on first with the overhead for a bit though as I have just purchased some 7 segment displays for it to enhance it's appearence a bit more.


Good luck with your build my friend and keep us posted - as I know you will.

Gary

[Qantas747]

Hey,

I know that MCPs and EFIS such as the CPflight and Opencockpits work with the NGX. Do you know if any of the radios from them also work with the NGX. As for the overhead, is there anyway to get outputs from the NGX overhead for use with your own? I know that it is easy to use the mouse macro in FSUIPC for the inputs.

Killerbee, how is your MIP going along, it looks very nice from the PICS.

Cheers,

Ollie

[bussgarfield]

Ollie,
I had my OpenCockpit MCP, EFIS, CDU and Radio's long before the release of the NGX. The radios work with the NGX without any script updating so you should be ok. I have VHF and NAV radios and TCAS and all work ok

Regarding my overhead, I plan to use Leo Bodnar cards for the switches and rotary switches through FSUIPC. I want to input actions into the NGX and not get outputs from it - unless I didn't understand what you were trying to say. The annunciators are wired up so when the appropriate switch (double pole) is activated, the annunciators light up at the same time as sending the command to the NGX.

Gary

[Qantas747]

Gary,

Thanks for the reply, explained pretty much everything I asked. Why are you using the Bodnar cards over something like the cards from opencockpits? Both have their advantages, and disadvantages.

Cheers,
Ollie

[bussgarfield]

Ollie,

I have got OpenCockpit cards for the set up of my overhead 7 segment displays which are yet to fitted. I have a OC servo card for my flaps gauge. Regarding the flaps gauge, I have still to get that working and have a hard time getting my head around the SIOC scripts. The OC MCP and EFIS are working well now but that was only down to the good people on here and other forums who were able to help me out with the set up and scripts.
I am going down the route of Leo's cards purely because of the ease in which to get my switches talking to the sim via FSUIPC. Many pit builders seem to revel in the setting up of the SIOC scripts and the whole system works well for them but I just can't get my head around them.
The original author of this thread (killerbee) spent a lot of his valuable time helping me convert my old MCP and EFIS to work with the NGX using the new scripts from Roark and I would rather not go down that route again.
Why did I buy all the OpenCockpit units in the first place? Because I was impressed with the quality and price and they were bought as plug and play units way back in 2008/2009.

Gary

[Qantas747]

Interesting isn't it, how people have their own preferences. Sorry for hijacking the thread a bit, just had a few questions no one was answering in my other thread. If I could get my head around SIOC, it seems that OC would be the way to go, especially if you wanted to add outputs or servos, it all interconnects together.

Ollie

[claushansen]

Hi,

I'm not using PMDG NGX but iFly. Regarding outputs to LED's and servos it should be quite straight forward if you have the
offsets/variables from the SDK. If anyone has the list we could look into this. I have made some simple SIOC tutorials
on my site Links->Tutorials

Regards
Claus
www.737sim.dk (http://www.737sim.dk)

[nolatron]

If anyone has the list we could look into this. I have made some simple SIOC tutorials
on my site Links->Tutorials

Regards
Claus
www.737sim.dk (http://www.737sim.dk)


FSUIPC includes a PDF with the NGX offsets for reading data. Good for lighting up indicators with SIOC.

The NGX SDK also has file containing the offset info for sending data to the NGX that would be used for the switches and inputs.

With this offset info I plan on using SIOC to control all my indicators on the my custom MIP and overhead and some Bodnar/Pokeys cards with FSUIPC for the switch inputs.

[killerbee1958]

It was fun spending that time with buzz getting his script working, but i have to agree, sioc is not the most easy to learn scripting language around.

To answer the question from ollie: my progress is slow but steady. I do not mind as i did not plan on finishing it on a certain date so i feel comfortable with the progress i am making.

One note however. In my research for what to use as a cockpitbuilder i have (almost) come to the conclusion i have to abadon pmdg 737NGx and go with Prosim737. For a very acceptable price of around 350 Euro's you get all the software to build your pit including a instructor station and a flightmodel.
Prosim can be interfaced to many type of interface cards (OC/FDS/Bodnar/Sismo) and in fact they do not make a statement about which is best suitable. they leave that up to the client. However my research sofar has led me to believe the pokeys 56e cards are best used to interface any switch and the phidget64 led cards to interface and annunciator.
The prosim program will recognize the flipping of a switch and you assign the action (f.e you flip the battery switch, prosim will tell you it recogines a input a port 1234 and you will tell then prosim this port needs to be configured to the battery switch event.

This doesn't mean you will get rid op sioc completly btw. Using a prebuilt OC MCP/EFIS/CDU or a motorized throttle will still require you to have sioc scripts managing these devices. But as Buzz pointed out there are guru's like roark out there that will solve the initial puzzle and are even kind enough to setup a website where one can download these scripts.

So for what it is worth. If you are serious in cockpit building give prosim737 some consideration, You can download a trial version which has all functionality available but i believe it will only allow you to fly for 30 minutes (if i am right)

For the record. I have no relation whatsoever with prosim. My advice is based purely on my personal research. Take it as you like it (or not)

[PLimrell]

Hello Fredrik
planning the same solution. Trying to have it confirmed that Sismo Landing Gear Lever will
fit but either Simworld nor Sismo have any experience from this mix.
Have you managed to have compability confirmed?
Brgds
Per

[killerbee1958]

Hello Fredrik
planning the same solution. Trying to have it confirmed that Sismo Landing Gear Lever will
fit but either Simworld nor Sismo have any experience from this mix.
Have you managed to have compability confirmed?
Brgds
Per

Hello Per,

I can defenitely confirm that the sismo landing gear lever will fit in the simworld panel. It will be offset a little bit to the right if you use the screwholes as available in the simworld mip but this doesn't even really show. I can upload a picture of my fitting if you like

regards

Fred

[PLimrell]

Thanks. Really appreciate your positive respons and the picture would certainly be appreciated as well.
Best regards
Per

[freddehboy]

Hi

I have build a cockpit for the pmdg737ngx (My own styleJ)

The cockpit has:

37x on/off switch 37 digital pins
9x on/off/on switch 18 digital pins
6x mom/off/mom switch 12 digital pins
1x on/off/mom switch 2 digital pins
2x Rotary encorders, 24-steps 4 digital pins
12x Rotary switch 50 digital pins
Rotary potentiometer 8 analog pins

Totals 116 digitals pins and 8 analog pins

1.)
I have PMDG737ngx and I need to know if the aircraft will work with your card “FDS-SXS2X” and the software InterfaceIT?

2.)
In pmdg:s SDK I can read that the 737ngx will communicate throught Simconnect but I have read that this cards will support pmdg737ngx but can someone confirm it that is no problem with the cards and the aircraft?

3.)
Can you say if the port at the cards can be program as a digital or analog ports?

Glad if someone could answer my question!

Sincerely Fredrik

[OmniAtlas]

How is your build coming along? The only thing I've purchased since our initial discussion has been the jetmax throttle which is built pretty well.

Next will probably be the cpflight MCP.

[freddehboy]

Hi

I am glad too say than I have finished my build and configuration since one week :)

The onsly thing is I have a issue with axes in fsuipc, see bellow for the description:
"
I am trying to link my potentiometer to the knob Circiut Breaker Bright in the overhead of the 737ngx cockpit. I do it through event control and it is working fine with buttons but the axis is not in sync!

I mean the full range of the knob in the cockpit is perform when I have just turn the potentioimeter maybe 10 degrees?"

The text is from another forum!

If you can pm me with your e-mail adress I can send some pictures :)

Best Fredrik

[OmniAtlas]

Current build --

Jetmax Throttle
ACE 737 Yoke
CP Flight EFIS PRO, MCP EL, NAV

MIP will be next....still can't decide!

[ohsirus]

Current build --

Jetmax Throttle
ACE 737 Yoke
CP Flight EFIS PRO, MCP EL, NAV

MIP will be next....still can't decide!

Which ones are you considering?

[OmniAtlas]

Still can't decide between a 2/3 MIP or full MIP.

For Full MIP either FDS or Flyengravity.

For 2/3 - either Jetmax or flyengravity.

Theres some considerable costs (and space) savings with the 2/3 MIP (captain, center sections) -- Jetmax looks great, but they do not have an option to expand to a full MIP like the flyengravity desktop series.

Unfortunately with flyengravity you will have to make your own subpanels, stand, and cdu-bay to support the structure. Flyengravity offers CP Flight ICS (plug and play) wiring for their desktop series as well, which should simplify things.

[cavscout_56]

I have always wondered though with the JetMax 2/3, could you simply add the F/O on that flyengravity makes and then intergrate that all togehter for a full MIP. Just thinking about that.