Boeing 727 sim

[Quartermaster340]

Hi folks,

Currently in the research stages for a project I hope to start this summer... I would just like to get the opinions of more experienced people out there. I hope to start construction on a 727 sim, however I am just wondering which model 727 (in terms of the software manufacturers) would be the best one??

P.S Hoping to use FSX..

Thanks guys

[birdyguy]

I believe there is at least one other person in the forum doing a 727 build, possibly even more. It seems to me the 737 is the most poplar which makes it the easiest to get parts and find building information for.

[Quartermaster340]

hi Ed,

thanks for your reply. while i understand that the 737 is the most popular model out there, i chose the 727 as I want to build as much of the sim myself, with my limited understanding of electronics. While the hardware is available for the 73, it comes at a price; and for someone who honestly cant afford to go spending that much money on an mcp and mcdu etc I felt that the 727 was a better option for me.

Also, the fact that I didnt want to go to so much effort and then just press the autopilot button at 3000ft and let RNAV take over had a significant influence on my decision. I'd much prefer to fly the VOR way as it gives you something to do when you are flying and as such you get to work your build more.

P.S I took a quick look at your site as the address was in your sig, really impressive stuff you are doing there, especially with the throttle quadrant - this is exactly what i want to do when i comes around to doing the TQ for my sim! I may be in touch later on with some questions!

Slán from across the pond!

James

[AVIATor-Olav]

Hi there James.

There are a few 727 builders on here. I'm one of them and you can find my thread here: http://www.mycockpit.org/forums/showthread.php/24047-Norwegian-727-200-project
The 727 is a fantastic plane I think, and I've allways had a thing for steam guages, bells and whistles! :) To build a 737 glass cockpit never was an option for me. My cockpit is a mix of home made stuff and real 727 hardware.
With regards to software I'm using FS2004 and the Dream fleet 727. I know some people have successfully adapted this plane for use with FSX, but I decided to go with FS9 due to better performance. When building a 727 a few compromises must be made as there is no 727 software dedicated to cockpit builders available at this time. You can still get a fairly accurate sim though, but you need to be creative to figure out how to find offsets to light up lights etc. I have no outputs in my sim yet, all lights are lit up mechanically. With regards to inputs from switches etc. FSUIPC is an absolute must have. With the mouse macro function you can make any switch do whatever you want in the DF727. Stijn on the forum is another 727 builder, he's building most of his stuff from scratch http://www.mycockpit.org/forums/showthread.php/24227-Boeing-727-Simulator

PM me if you have questions, and I'll try to answer as best as I can. I'm still quite new to this though, but I have learnt a thing or two about building a 727 cockpit.

Sláinte
Tor

[birdyguy]

Hello James,

Thank you for kind words of encouragement. I also am working on a restrained budget myself, so have to be careful how much I spend as well. The building process is extremely rewarding but takes countless hours :-) I wish I had more skills in the electronic area myself. Even after much reading, I still see it as a language from a planet I have not heard of.


Be happy to answer any questions about my TQ that you may want to know. Give me a buzz when you begin your TQ.

Happy flights

[Quartermaster340]

Tor,

What you have is epic, I really wish that someday I could have something as realistic as yours. Unfortunately, for me I dont have the OH panel and other stuff from the 727... I dont think we have too many aircraft grave yards in Ireland. That said, it doesnt really phase me, I like the challenge and most of the switches and covers can be bought real cheap. Might build up a frame from steel/aluminium alloy angles and then cover it in perspex. Then I could make the individual panels from 2mm aluminium sprayed in Boeing grey...

For now, I'm not so worried about the outputs - simple circuitry will give me the right lights when i need them and if I get more skills then I can work from that.

Ed,

I appreciate you offering your help and I will most definately be in touch at some stage!

Thanks Guys,

James.

[Chaser]

The 727 is a good choice. I actually went with the DC-9 because of similar reasons. I wanted a full cockpit enclosure with as many real parts, and as easy to interface as possible. (And needed a compact flight deck because it would be inside the house)

Depending on how "nuts" you want to go with the 727, it can be a spendy process. The throttle quadrants are getting more expensive and rarer as they get torn down if you want real parts, and a true flight deck is massive (7-8 feet tall by 10 feet wide, by about 12 feet long if I recall).

The only 727 Payware I know of is the CaptainSim, which is pretty decent, and they do both the 100-200 models.

Are you planning on using real pieces or building your own?
Jon

[Quartermaster340]

Thanks Jon,

I dont plan on using any real parts tbh, as you mentioned they are extremely hard to come by and living in Ireland the shipping would be a nightmare. From my own knowledge of avionics, implementing them into a homebuilt sim could be rather time consuming, and would add significant weight to the structure, thus requiring reinforcements. ALso you would need more room as each module in the MIP would extend far back beyond what the user sees.

While building your own components can compromise slightly on realism, I believe that you get more satisfaction for your work and you end up knowing your system a lot better too. also, the amount of skills you can improve upon are pretty cool too.

[Stijn]

Hi james,

Welcome, nice to have another 72 builder
I think you want to go my way, I build everything myself and when i stumble across some cheap parts i purchase them like a VSI for 24 euro's.
Currently i'm working on the Sidewalls of the cockpit. I will upload some pictures soon.
I'm 18 years old so don't have a lot to spend. Stuff like the beamer and monitors I bought second hand. I think the most expensive thing i bouhgt for my sim is a 727-100 glass cockpit panel from an old UPS freighter, about 300 euro's. (i used all the hardware on the panel for my sim).

Feel free to ask some more,

Stijn

Link to my build thread --> http://www.mycockpit.org/forums/showthread.php/24227-Boeing-727-Simulator

[project 727]

Hi James

Its great to see our Boeing 727 family grow. It felt quit lonely many years ago when I started working on PROJECT 727. I've noticed thoughout the years that the main reason pilots choose to build a 727 simulator reamins the same:
"... YOU HAVE TO FLY THE BOEING 727"

The best Boeing 727 flight model is found in the Dream Fleet 727 for FS9. This flight model can be flown by "THE NUMBERS" specified in the tables of a B-727 Flight Manual (within the limits of FS9). Having flown profesional full motion 727 sims I can also say that the DF 727 is the best to capture the "FEEL" of flying this clasic jetliner. Even real world 727 pilots that have flown my sim confirm this. If you love the Boeing 727 then the DF 727 is a good reason to stick with FS9.

The Captain Sim 727 for FSX is the BEST to replicate the looks of the 727, but there flight model is very poor. If you try to fly the Captain Sim 727 by the numbers you will probably stall the airplane and crash. I've seen good reviews of the 727 for XPLANE but I have no experience with that sim. However if Microsoft continues to ignore the needs of our flight sim community I may jump over to XPLANE.

Feel free to ask me questions via private message and to browes our web site at www.project727.com
Hope to see your 727 in the sky soon!!!

Joe Maldonado
PROJECT 727
www.project727.com

[Quartermaster340]

Stijn, Joe,

Thanks for getting in touch and for your advice. I must say its quite interesting that for the 72, people seem to be pushing FS9. This is great as it means I dont need to fork out on a top of the range computer. Seems like it is the Dreamfleet 727 so. While I am looking for a sim that replicated the 727 flightdeck as much as possible, i am also conscious that it flies like the real thing. It would be especially interesting to test the flight charicteristics of the aircraft, and to see in practice the modes of flight, stability and control of the aircraft that I have learned from my undergraduate course in Aero Eng.

While I have just about all of the 727 people on this thread now, I have a fw questions that I hope you can help with.

1) Where did you guys get the dimensions of the panels etc.? Did you guess or take from the 737 or is there I place online i have yet to find?

2) It may be early days yet, but flight manuals - FCOM, QRH etc - are these still around for the 727 or are they at this stage extinct? Is there even a remote chance of a pdf copy?? :O

Thanks guys, I appreciate the warm reception from you all.

James.

[AVIATor-Olav]

My MIP was based on some measurements I got hold of and a whole lot of guesstimates. I think the other guys can give you more accurate measurements than I, but I can send you my drawings if you're interested. I might make a new MIP somewhere down the road If I can get accurate measurements. See this hobby does something to you, you go mad bit by bit! lol In the beginning I was like, oh it's close enough, good enough for me.... etc. Now I'm like; Hmmm... It's not perfectly right...

[Quartermaster340]

I'd be delighted with any help you guys could give me! Olav, (I hope that is your name!) did you also build the engineer's panel??

[AVIATor-Olav]

It's Tor-Olav :) I usually only use Tor though. No I have not made the engineer panel yet. I have not decided how to go about it. I have to pop it up on the projector to do the engineer business. Don't know how the other fellas operate theirs.
Send me a PM with your e-mail adress and I'll send you some drawings

[Quartermaster340]

Thanks very much Tor. PM Sent.

[skyline223]

I'd just like to chime in here as another 727 builder. I constructed my sim from a retired 727-100 CPT acquired from Fedex. I must say she is the BEST jetliner to fly. You are completely right about having the VOR's to keep you busy, it makes commercial flight much more challenging.

I use FSX and the Dreamfleet 727. I also have flown multiple Level-D motion 727 simulators and I have found it is the best flight model out there, at least for FSX.

I would also be glad to answer any questions you may have. I have fought the fight of interfacing that all of us 727 builders have fought due to lack of software support.

Happy landings,

Will
www.727simulator.com (http://www.727simulator.com)

[Stijn]

Hi james,

Measurements i took from a 727 mip I own. Glareshield i guessed some and got some from micheal carter (search on the forum for his threads, unfortuantly he is no longer active here). For shell and interior measurements i used 737 drawnings.
But for specific measurements you could contact Nick at APHS ex united pilot, believe he flew the 72 also.

As for ''the feel'', i think this is the most dificult part about building a sim. Real flight simulators use electric motors in a force feedback system. But i use normal springs, also seen projects with gassprings.
And like the others all ready said, the dreamfleet 727 is the best add-on. But don't feel like you have to use FS2004. There are aircraft converters around who convert a FS2004 aircraft to FSX.

Also send you a PM for manuals,

Stijn

[Quartermaster340]

Thanks Will for the reply.

Did you use the FSUIPC mouse macro thing to capture your switches and rotaries etc??

Also, how did you get the flight instruments expanded Did you use the FSXpand program or did you go down another route??

Thanks,

James

[skyline223]

I used FSUIPC mouse macros for many of the 727 specific commands (ex. F/E panel). For more default commands, (anti-ice, pitot heat, etc.) I used preset parameters within the InterfaceIT Managment software that came with my FDS InterfaceIT cards.

My captain and F/O flight displays are connected directly to my main computer that also runs the master copy of FSX and the visuals. I run only the engine panel from a networked computer using WideView, which as many know is very poor program for networking instruments and avionics, but it works good enough for the engine and flap gauges. All the gauges are displayed via a custom panel made in FSPanelStudio.



But for specific measurements you could contact Nick at APHS ex united pilot, believe he flew the 72 also.


I would also be willing to share any measurements needed for the 727. Our CPT was built in 1965 from Boeing factory plans so every measurement is dead on.

Will

[Quartermaster340]

I would also be willing to share any measurements needed for the 727. Our CPT was built in 1965 from Boeing factory plans so every measurement is dead on.

Will

I would be very grateful for that if it would not be too difficult for you. Thanks very much!

James.

[skyline223]

Sure, James. Just let me know what exactly you need.

[Quartermaster340]

Thanks Will, I'd really appreciate the dimensions of the MIP and location/sizes of the gauges on the MIP if at all possible.

Regards,

James