APU Not Starting

[Gert van der Winden]

Hi Alan,

Continue the problem about not starting the APU Start Switch from Off to On to Start, still having problems (see below the mail to Enrico and Jonathan).

The problem exists with all three way toggle switches when there is a off-on-on software situation occurs like APU, Bleed ect.
2 way toggle switches gives no problems at all, now connected all 2 way switches from the overhead on a total of 4x 0/16/16 Phidget boards, just great to see it working all together !

So I hope you will be able to solve the problem in the FS2Phidget program because I know almost for sure I'm not the only one with have trouble to let work.

Thanks, also for writing some dutch . .
Met vriendelijke groet,

Gert

p.s also find a APU_problem.zip file with some files to help you understanding what happening and going wrong.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
E-mail to Jonathan (Project Magenta Cockpit Builder using Phidget boards
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Gert

Just so you know, the problem is with the Phidgets driver program. We
have isolated the cause, but to get it fixed we are talking with the
author of that program. I have no idea how long this will take I'm
afraid, it just depends when he can make changes. You should find that
anything with a two way switches will work, but anything with more than
two positions will probably not due to an error in writing the length of
the offset from the Phidgets driver software.

Aside from the above, we will also put in an option in Pmsystems for
people who don't have Boeing switches and only have two way switches
on/off for things like APU, PACKS, GENS etc etc. rather than off/on/on
and such like.

Regards
Jonathan



-----Original Message-----
From: Gert van der Winden [mailto:gert.vanderwinden@chello.nl]
Sent: 14 December 2004 22:01
To: jonathan@projectmagenta.com
Subject: Re: Purchase PM Software by LHS


Hi Jonathan,

Oke, thanks, I'm happy you will look in to it !

Gert

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jonathan Richardson" <jonathan@projectmagenta.com>
To: "'Gert van der Winden'" <gert.vanderwinden@chello.nl>
Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 11:04 PM
Subject: RE: Purchase PM Software by LHS


> Hi Gert
>
> I will look into it tomorrow. It is about six weeks since I last
> looked at Phidgets and pmSystems. The APU is one of the most tricky
> ones.
>
> Regards
> Jonathan
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gert van der Winden [mailto:gert.vanderwinden@chello.nl]
> Sent: 14 December 2004 20:01
> To: Jonathan Richardson (Project Magenta)
> Subject: Fw: Purchase PM Software by LHS
>
>
> Hi Jonathan,
>
> Install 2.09 version FS2Phidget now and still having the same problem,

> but there are some strange things happend !
>
> When moving the switch with the mouse in pmSystems on the APU switch
> it's moving from off to on to start (in that vertical direction !) but

> . . . when moving the hardware switch on the overheadpanel from off to

> on (top position to middle position) from true to false or from false
> to true the software switch moves from off to a rightside way position

> on the screen (see picture APU_FS2Phidget_True.jpg).
>
> In the off position it is moving to the normal off position on the
> screen, this is oke. Also I have to set the option Invert enable to
> have the switch (hardware) in the same moving position as the software

> switch from pmSystem, but this is no problem ! it's just because the
> contact for the true statment is only made when the switch is in the
> outer position.
>
> Also when change the command in FS2Phidget from APUStart to APUOn the
> same problem occurs but now the switch moves from Off to the leftside
> way position in the pmSysyem software, only when using the APUoff
> command everything works fine and the switch moves in vertical
> direction only but never reach the actual start hotspot on the screen
> so the APU is not starting.
>
> Also you find the FS2PhUIPC.ini file with the offset commands and the
> pmsys737.txt and sysvar.txt files to look if you find something wrong
> there !
>
> I'm overlooking something or don't understand where to put the right
> bit assignment, but need some help in this to solve the problem. I
> hope you can help me ?
>
> The sound option to put a wav file under a switch is function now, so
> I have already some APU startup sound . . . but now waiting for the
> logic in pmSystems to operate so I can go on with the startup off the
> 737 engines.
>
> Thanks already for your support,
>
> Gert van der Winden
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gert van der Winden" <gert.vanderwinden@planet.nl>
> To: "Jonathan Richardson (Project Magenta)"
> <jonathan@projectmagenta.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 5:34 PM
> Subject: Re: Purchase PM Software by LHS
>
>
>> Hi Jonathan,
>>
>> Thanks for the quick reply, I'm downloading the 2.09 version
>> FS2Phidget now and try it out when I'm back home this evening.
>>
>> I'm using a normal 3 and 2 way toggle switches (see picture jpg's of
>> switches I'm using) small and large, with 2 way ON/OFF and 3 way
>> ON/OFF/ON. This one 3-way I'm using for the APU start and using only
2
>
>> contacts, the middle contact pin for ground support and the outer
>> contacts pin for making
>> (short)contact to the phidget board.
>>
>> You give me some more hope now to have it work I think, let you know
>> after installation of the new FS2Phidget software.
>>
>> Thanks for your support,
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Gert van der Winden
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Jonathan Richardson" <jonathan@projectmagenta.com>
>> To: "'Enrico Schiratti (Project Magenta)'"
> <support@projectmagenta.com>;
>> "'Gert van der Winden'" <gert.vanderwinden@chello.nl>
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 5:40 PM
>> Subject: RE: Purchase PM Software by LHS
>>
>>
>>>
>>> I am a bit lost... do you want me to change all the 3 way switches
>>> with 2 way switches?
>>>
>>>> There must be other people out there how already have some hardware
>>>> interact between pmSystems and FS2Phidget (Jonathan) and have it
>>>> functioned.
>>>
>>> Perhaps Jonathan can chime in on this...
>>>
>>> Hi
>>>
>>> If using the latest Phidget software - you should have no problems
>>> getting the APU to run. The problem is the type of switch you are
>>> using. Not having a real APU switch, I did it using a 3 way toggle
>>> switch. ON - OFF - ON. But I only used the OFF - ON part. In other
>>> words the third furthest position back was not used. Thus, setting
>>> the APU bit is just a case of using the ON / OFF (afraid I don't
have
>
>>> the boards up and running right here now so I can't run a test) if
>>> you get really stuck - let me know and I will run a test. I would
>>> need to know what type of switch you are using though. You can even
>>> get the APU to run with a simple ON-OFF switch, you just have to
>>> chose the right bit assignment. Let me know if you need help....
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> Jonathan

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
E-mail to Enrico (Project Magenta
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello Gert and Jonathan,

> Oke, I understand about the offset I think ! . . .so I must Phidget
> settings change in a byte (0, 1 or 2 - off, on and start for the apu
> switch)
> but how ?
>
> Like this:
> H560F 0 = APU Off
> H560F 1 = APU On
> H560F 2 = APU Start
>
> So if a paste this into my FS2Phuipc.ini file it must work ? . . . I have
> done it already but without any luck.

I really do not know...

If the APU is set to off, then you have to write 0, if it is on 1 and if it
is being started 2....

> [APUStartOn]
> Offset=560F
> Length=2
> FSType=Bitmap

Not a Bitmap! It is a byte. Length 1

Length 2 is a WORD...

> If not please ask if Jonathan want to send me his example of his
> FS2Phuipc.ini so I can compare, I think after looking in his file I
> understand more about it.

Please ask jonathan@projectmagenta.com...

> in combination with Phidget hardware I/O is a great combination to. In
> Denver I saw Jonathan have it all working so it must be possible to for
> me.

Did you ask Alan about this as well?

> Sorry if I'm contacting you about this, but your the one that knows a lot
> about this stuff !

I know nothing about Phidgets... that is the problem here.

Ciao

Enrico

[737FlightSim]

Hello Gert
What type of switch are you using for the APU?

I use two inputs of a 0/16/16 IO card for the apu start function.

I programmed one input for 0 = off and 1 = on

The second input is programmed 1 = on and 2 = start

The switch I am using is the real Boeing APU Start/on/off switch.

If you are going to purchase a three position switch you need a DPDT that can be wired on - on - on

The first section of the DPDT is wired to the first input and produces this logic.

off = off, on = on, start = on

The second switch section is wired to the second input and produces this logic for the three positions

off = off, on = off, start = on

[alandyer]

David,

What FS function do you assign the 2 interface card inputs?
i.e. what does your APU FS2PhUIPC.ini entry look like?

Alan.

[Gert van der Winden]

David,

What FS function do you assign the 2 interface card inputs?
i.e. what does your APU FS2PhUIPC.ini entry look like?

Alan.

I Alan,

I try some things out what David is telling me, reports if done, oke !
Perhaps it works for me to use two inputs with only having a 2way dubble pole switch as David mention.

Thanks David for your reply, kep you informed.

Regards,

Gert

[alandyer]

Gert,

I will also play around with switch as well.
Thanks for the tip, David.
(Hy is ons plaaslike slimkop).

Now, David is going to wonder what we are talking about.
Keeps him on his toes.

Groete en Geseende Kersfees,
(Regards and Merry Christmas)
Alan.

[737FlightSim]

Hi Alan
Here is what is listed in the mbd file

(input 1)
APU OFF
Offset 560F
Length 1
On-Off
LoVal 0
HiVal 1

(input 2)
APU START
Offset 560F
Length 1
On-Off
LoVal 1
HiVal 2

I think why it works is because Phidgets reports only a change in state. So that when you change from off to on there is no change in the second section of the switch so there is no change of state in input 2.

Then when you move the switch from on to start there is no change in the first section of the switch and so there is no change of state in input 1.

When you move the switch from Start to on there is no change in the first section of the switch and so again there is no change of state in input 1.

When you move the switch from on to off there is no change in the second section of the switch so there is no change of state in input 2.

[737FlightSim]

Hi Alan
A nice addition would be a "table"

Then we could set the values using more than one phidget input

if input 1 = 0 & input 2 = 0 then Offset 560F = 0
if input 1 = 1 & input 2 = 0 then Offset 560F = 1
if input 1 = 0 & input 2 = 1 then Offset 560F = 2

This would eliminate the problems with 3 position switches

This could also be used for all the rotary switches on the P5 overhead and the MIP

[alandyer]

Gert,

David's entries for your ini file would be:

[APU_OFF]
Offset =560F
Length=1
LoValue=0
HiValue=1

[APU_START]
Offset=560F
Length=1
LoValue=1
HiValue=2

With regard to table suggestion.
I am putting together a solution that will make it easier to assign multi-position (more than 2) switches using multiple digital inputs.
Stay tuned!

Regards,
Alan.

[Gert van der Winden]

Hi Alan and David,

Thanks for your great support and helping to solve the switch problem.
Tomorrow I try the new settings in the ini file as mention and let you know how it ends.

Regards,

Gert

[imported_MattO]

Are getting close to a PRO-Version, Alan? ;)

As you are mentioning multi-positioning and multi-digital........ This may be related or is the same thing.

In order for my throttle to work properly with the FCU, I need to assign a second offset to each throttle (analog). In the case of the Airbus, this is needed to set the Gates.

Such as.

Throttle 1. 88C & 3330
Throttle 2. 924 & 3332
Throttle 3. 9BC & 3334
Throttle 4. A54 & 3336

I would think this would also be so, with the B737 :)

Matt O.

[alandyer]

Not familiar with offsets 3330 thru 3336.

[imported_MattO]

They are in Peter Dowsons Table of Offsets.

You probably know this.... These values of the throttle output go to the engines
directly.

Throttle 1. 88C
Throttle 2. 924
Throttle 3. 9BC
Throttle 4. A54

These are the physical Axis positions of the throttle.

Throttle 1. 3330
Throttle 2. 3332
Throttle 3. 3334
Throttle 4. 3336

Enrico, helped me understand how this works.

Matt O.

[alandyer]

Throttles are analog input.
Nothing to do with states: 2, 3 or otherwise.
I don't want to cloud this thread on APU start switch states by going off on a tangent and discussing analog input and outputs in a force-feedback system like auto-throttles.

[alandyer]

Gert,

I got APU Start to work.
First, I went to local electronic supply store (RadioShack)
and bought a 3 position DPDT toggle switch.
http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&product%5Fid=275-1533
Costs around $3.49

Wired center pole of switch to Input "G" on Interfacekit.
Wired other 2 poles to Input 1 and Input 2 on Interfacekit.

I set up the following in FS2PhUIPC.ini:
[APU_OFF]
Offset=560F
Length=1
LoValue=0
HiValue=1
[APU_START]
Offset=560F
Length=1
LoValue=1
HiValue=2

I then configured FS2Phidget:
- assigned APU_OFF to Input 1
- assigned APU_START to Input 2.

By checking "invert" box for APU_OFF (Input 1 in my set up) the center position of switch becomes ON position.

Looks and works just like switch in PM-Systems and real switch in cockpit.

Groete,
Alan.

[Gert van der Winden]

Hi Alan,

Did the same and indeed it works for me to, you don't even have to a DPDT switch with ON-ON-ON. I had only a APEN ON-OFF-ON switch and wired them as follows:

The two center poles on switch to G (ground) and the left one from section one and right one from section two to input one offset:

[APUOff]
Offset=560F
Length=1
LoValue=0
HiValue=1

and one other wire to the left one from section two to input two offset:

[APUStart]
Offset=560F
Length=1
LoValue=1
HiValue=2

The switch is now going first from Off to On and then from On to Start, the only thing is that the switch will go automatic back to his On position afterwards (I don,t no if this is also done on the real aircraft the same !) but . . . it works fine no.

Already did the same with the L Pack and R Pack and Isolation Valve, had to made two new statments in the FS2PhUIPC.ini file Pack1_Off and Pack1_High and add the same Lo and HiValue 0-1 and 1-2 as the APU switch and it works also now.

The only bad side of this that you must have more I/O inputs to asssign all swithes with three functions, I had already 4x 0/16/16 and 1 0/8/8 and one LCDText with have also 8 inputs but this all together is not enough so I must order more at Phidget USA.

I want to thank you for your support and wish you and your family a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year, (Prettige Kerstdagen en een Gelukkig Nieuw Jaar)

Gert

[737FlightSim]

Glad to hear that the APU is now working. The real 737 APU switch is a three position with the start position being momentary, so it will automatically return to "on" from the start position. It is also a Pull to unlock type of switch, so the handle must be pulled to move it from the "off" to "on" position or from the “on to the "off" position. You must also must pull to move the switch to the start position.

[alandyer]

You used similiar switch to myself !
Ja-nee, I also only needed On-Off-On.