Level D [Archive] - MyCockpit.org

garyk007

05-22-2007, 02:34 AM

Ok so I have been reading up on the 767 from Level D. And FSCONV, that Nico has kindly made.

Now the question. Who is Level D?
Are they planning on making a 737?
They should because if it came with a SDK and if Nico's FSCONV worked with that I am sure there would be a lot of people who are currently considering the use of PM systems who would opt for the massively cheaper alternative.

Now the sugestion from a non programmer.

Why doesnt someone write an aircraft without all the eye candy. That is no VC and no interior and no exterior.
So how is this an aircraft?
Well if it had some basic panels but came with a SDK that someone (NICO) could write an app like FSCONV to work with it.

Then all of us 737 cockpit builders could use it for our sims.

I know it may seem like re inventing the wheel, but I just cant get over the cost of PM systems. All that is, is new offsets and the logic of the 737 overhead etc.

Maybe I have this all upside down, and inside out, and this probably just seems like a rant. But my point is this.

If you model a 767 you buy Level D for $50 odd and use FSCONV and you can build a full flight deck with FMS and MCP.

If you model a 737 you buy PM systems for $1500 or more and you build your flight deck.

I am not sure if this point has been brought up before, if so sorry.

It is not my intention to insult or stir up any one, I am just wondering why things are like they are.

NicD

05-22-2007, 04:10 AM

LevelD is a company that has produced the 767, wich IMHO is the best aircraft ever for FS. I don't think a 737 is anywhere on their horizon. http://www.leveldsim.com/sevensix_home.asp They are far more open with SDKs etc than other suppliers (like PMDG) and with Nico's FSCONV you can do almost everything that Project Magenta (PM) would otherwise give you.

The 737 equivalent to the LevelD-767 is the PMDG-737. Similar advanced functionality etc. - but PMDG are a closed shop when it comes to SDKs and ignore cockpit builders it seems. Some builders are able to build a full size cockpit just using the PMDG but you cant produce a true 2 crew cockpit with it - with independant EFIS, NAV displays, CDUs etc. To operate the overhead (which has limited known offsets) builders use tricks like key2mouse software that maps mouse clicks to keyboard commands. Possible, but tricky.

So for many 737 builders PM is the chosen solution - and yes ... expensive in comparison.

With your idea of writing a base aircraft file without the eye candy... thats fine, but all the advanced systems programming and logic would have to exist somewhere. In LDS767 and POMDG737 these exist as part of the panel programming. So without the eye candy you loose the all the advanced systems and logic (CDU for example).

Frustrating I know ... but its just the was FS is designed. What PM does is provide all the systems and logic EXTERNAL to any specific aircraft file.

Given this situation, and the recent PM price hikes, I'm suprised that more new builders are not going for the 767 and just using the LDS product to build their sims.

All this is not easy to comprehend at first - but hope this helps! :)

garyk007

05-22-2007, 05:16 AM

Yes I think it was probably frustration that had set in that prompted my previos post.

I am busy trying to get to grips with open cockpits IO coding and logic, and to run across Nico's website and see that it can all be done so easily by using a cheap fs aircraft just put me over the top.

I did read that FSBUS had a GUI interface that allowed you to create complex systems. If I understand it correctly You could require certain switches to be on or off before other functions would work. that is even though those functions dont live in FS.

Unfortunately that GUI has been removed from FSBUS, so I chose the IO solution which is proving frustrating due to the lack of an idiots guide to their systems.

So I am back at square one looking through the PM systems price list...

Westozy

05-22-2007, 05:30 AM

So I am back at square one looking through the PM systems price list...[/quote]

PMDG in a two seater works just fine Gary and is VERY reliable. Sure you can't simulate everything that PM does but I spend a lot of time flying my sim and enjoying it, I'm not chasing down endless problems. I suggest using it as a starting place, my intention was to use PMDG as a push on until I could afford PM but it's so good, I won't change it for quids. If PM was stable and worked flawlessly then perhaps it would be worth it. Flightdeck Technology are developing their own glass cockpit software and I'm waiting to see what they come up with. Sooner or later the penny will drop with some developer about what software a cockpit builder needs for a realistic price.

Gwyn

JBaymore

05-22-2007, 12:05 PM

Other choices.......

As many of you might know, I have long been a big fan of FreeFD for my PFD and my ND displays. That's currently what I am using. Don Lafontaine did quite a service for the field in providing that stuff for free and supporting it for many years. Although not totally complete (FreeFD was still a work in progress when Don ended the project) those two instruments from the suite work pretty well.

Well, if any of you have followed my sticky thread on FreeFD at the Simviation Homebuild Cockpits forum section....... you will find the new "evolution" of FreeFD by Don at the following website:

http://www.elliesystems.com/

It is now payware, and has not been released just yet...... so I have no idea about pricing or functionality. But if the original freeware is any indication of quality and support...... this offering by Don should give PM a bit of a run for their money.

Then there is also the freeware cockpitware.

Competition is a GOOD thing for the consumer. ;)

best,

....................john

PS: And I agree with Gwyn on the "Keep It Simple, Stupid" approach to cockpit building. I'd rather be flying than tinkering with yet another software or hardware problem.

NicD

05-22-2007, 07:28 PM

JBaymore

05-22-2007, 07:58 PM

Nic-D,

Don't know about the faltering reliability concept .... but the PM PRICE is what would stop me cold in my tracks if there were no other alternatives.

In fact, the very fact that I even STARTED my whole simpit was finding FreeFD in the first place. The existance of the FREE program started me on the road. It opened up possibilities. Now............. thousands of dollars of hardware later...... ;) ............

I do understand the cost of writing code for a niche market, low sales volume product.... did some of that back in the early 80s. But my stuff was targeted for professional uses...... not for a hobby.

best,

..................john

garyk007

05-22-2007, 11:52 PM

I dont know if these work.

But I came accross them while surfing the net.

Could nomeone with more of a clue than me, please have a look and post comments.
http://members.chello.at/spatat/pmdg.htm
Cheers

NicD

05-23-2007, 01:20 AM

I do understand the cost of writing code for a niche market, low sales volume product.... did some of that back in the early 80s. But my stuff was targeted for professional uses...... not for a hobby.

That could be the reason why PM has raised its prices ;) ... keep the hobbyists at bay :( ..? Just glad I bought mine while it was still priced within the range of a hobby budget.

Main reason I bought PM was my project was designed from the ground up for full/RW 2-crew ops. It has alot of nice features in that department. I still love flying it on my own but the greatest enjoyment for me is using RW checklists/procedures and honing our coordination / CRM. Otherwise I probably would have gone the PMDG route quite happily.

pdpo

05-23-2007, 03:57 AM

To Gary007,

hi there,

I have been using opencockpits hardware for some time now and have build up some expertise with SIOC programming. The beginning was also not easy but once you get the hang of it its not that difficult to program in it.
Let me know what it is you dont understand and I'll explain it...no problem at all

First thing you should do is play with it ... I mean...start up the config_sioc program and look at the help file...
I know its not soo easy to build up a script in this program config_sioc and I never use it. I always write my script with a simple text editor and then load it in the config_sioc.exe (import txt file), compile it and run....

You just need to understand what is below it all.... there is a program which can treat 9999 variables which in the beginning are all at an unknown value.
When the variable gets a new value the script related to that variable is invoked which can modify other variables which causes their scripts to be invoked. The variable you define are linked to a hardware input, output, 7segment display, fsuipc offset for read (FSUIPC_IN) or an fsuipc offset for write (FSUIPC_OUT) or bidirectional (FSUIPC_INOUT)....thats the basic...
Since the initial value of each variable is 'unknown' the initial pass of each
variable will cause an initialisation phase. you can guide this initialisation by
setting initial values to each variable in the VAR 0000 since this variables script will be invoked first.

Well thats in a very small nutshell....

If more info needed ... maybe we can once open a teamspeak channel to discuss about this....

Greetz Peter

garyk007

05-23-2007, 06:02 AM

PDPO (Peter)

I thank you for your offer.

I think it is a great idea to chat on teamspeak.
I will fist play a bit more with note pad and some basic examples. then I will ask you to join me on teamspeak.
I will also email the text files so you can have a look.

Thanks again, it is great to find so many people willing to help.:p

Michael Carter

05-23-2007, 07:46 AM

I am doing more or less what Gwyn is doing. Relying on the aircraft for basic functions. Most can be accomplished with FSUIPC and FDT cards among others. I have a suprising amount of overhead functionality just using a Hagstrom card and FSUIPC.

Every system aboard the aircraft will probably not be fully functional until something else comes along, but it will provide enough realistic simulation until that time.

I refuse to pay what PM charges for software. It is not suited to my aircraft anyway, but if it was I still wouldn't pay for it.

There's more than one way to skin a cat.

Gsey

05-23-2007, 08:11 AM

mauriceb

05-23-2007, 08:36 AM

That is good news ... competition is what is needed. The only risk is that with such a small customer base that there won't be enough to go around. However it would be good to have at least 2-3 serious players in this field. And if the price and support are reasonable it may just bring more wanna-be builders into the game. Right now PM is scaring people off with higher $ and faltering reliability - which is a real pity.

I would agree almost 100% but I am also 100% sure that any new player in this field is also going to run into support problems, much like Enrico is now. I don't think there will ever be a large enough cockpit builder market to justify the cost of hiring enough programmers and support people to deal with the myriad of configurations & ever changing hardware issues out there.

It's a nice thought, but I think we are in a long uphill battle to get bug free flight deck simulation software and PM is still my best bet unless they decide to abandon us & concentrate on their commercial ventures, which is something Enrico promised he would not do.

Maurice

Westozy

05-23-2007, 10:20 AM

IMO The current price for PM systems for any aircraft other than the 737 is unethical.

Gary

I think it is the high prices that keeps the customer base small. We are all taking on a huge task and a mountain of problems to overcome in order to build a functioning home cockpit, I'll bet there are many builders that start and quit. If there was software and hardware that made it all easy, the customer base would be huge and prices would be more reasonable. On the grand scale of things I think the hobby is still in it's infancy and will keep growing. I joined IFSBI as member #59 and in 18 months there are now nearly 2000 of us, that must be some indication of the growth. The guy who inspired me to build my own cockpit here in Perth had a 777 cockpit with full PM suite, 3 PCs etc, he gave it up and went back to the desktop after having a gutsful of the PM problems. He now flys my sim and he can't believe the result acheived with PMDG and 1 PC.
I've stopped reading the PM problem threads as it's all above my head and I can't help anyone anyway. I don't want to appear to be a PM basher as I truly applaud all vendors who try to help us maintain our hobby. The PM software suite has been around a long time now and still obviously isn't quite right, yet it continues to grow more expensive and the user's frustration is evident here daily. I think I need to write about this in my next Computer Pilot article, maybe it will prompt some action or is that just wishful thinking? I'm glad I haven't shelled out that much cash for my sim! Sooner or later the right solution will appear, it usually does...

mauriceb

05-23-2007, 10:40 AM

I think I need to write about this in my next Computer Pilot article, maybe it will prompt some action or is that just wishful thinking?

Maybe wishful thinking, but it would be nice if you did. Anything that may ignite a response would be beneficial. ;)

One more though about this though; I don't think the price of the PM software is the main &/or only factor that keeps more cockpit builders away. Yes, it's expensive, but compared to the price of all the hardware that goes into a full blown flight deck, it's really pocket change.

Maurice

Westozy

05-23-2007, 11:00 AM

[quote=mauriceb;36464]Maybe wishful thinking, but it would be nice if you did. Anything that may ignite a response would be beneficial. ;)

That's exactly what I was thinking, to try and trigger a response as I have read the complaints of PM customers who are feeling ignored.
I can imagine the total expense of buying all of the parts to make a cockpit would be huge making the price of PM appear small percentage, but in my case where I have made my own parts, PM would represent about a quarter of its cost. I would be really upset if I spent that much and wasn't satisfied with the product. To be fair though, the PM guys must have a **** of a lot on their plate and it must be practically impossible to reply to each individual's request for help. I quizzed PMDG on some interface issues and was ignored several times, when I sent a 'bogus' email asking about another aspect of their products, I was answered immediately. They all must have huge "Too Hard" baskets!

JBaymore

05-23-2007, 02:14 PM

[quote=mauriceb;36464]I can imagine the total expense of buying all of the parts to make a cockpit would be huge making the price of PM appear small percentage, but in my case where I have made my own parts, PM would represent about a quarter of its cost.

DITTO here! Exactly my situutaion too. If I had to buy premade stuff for most of the pit like panels and knobs, and so on .... like all from places like FDS or Engravity or ???? .... I wouldn't even HAVE a pit in the first place. The fact that I am a craftsman in RL (potter) and am able to fabricate stuff reasonably well is what allows this whole project.

And it STILL is not a cheap endeavor.

I think both TOTAL price and physical SPACE are the biggest impediments to the newcomer. Not to mention the COMPLEXITY of it all ....... particularly if you start right off trying to copy some very particular specific aircraft right down to the screw locations. That is a formula for frustration and failure. Or the solution to that is to spend a LOT of money. But if you don't have the money...... you just don't build.

When you spend thousands of dollars for just the panel facings for the pit....... a thousand for the PM package does not seem too bad. When you spend HUNDREDS for the panels....... a thousand sounds like a LOT of money!

best,

....................john

Michael Carter

05-23-2007, 05:52 PM

Maybe wishful thinking, but it would be nice if you did. Anything that may ignite a response would be beneficial. ;)

One more though about this though; I don't think the price of the PM software is the main &/or only factor that keeps more cockpit builders away. Yes, it's expensive, but compared to the price of all the hardware that goes into a full blown flight deck, it's really pocket change.

Maurice

That's is true, but software is an intangeable. It's not something you push or turn, or that lights up like a CDU or FMC. Of course, the software makes all of that possible, but it's just not something you can put your hands on.

When I see a piece of Boeing, Collins, or Gables equipment for sale, I'm thinking, wow, that'll look great in the 727 and it's the right part. I don't think like that about software.

Although I was pretty excited about the Dreamfleet 727. ;)

imported_767300

05-23-2007, 07:28 PM

Hi guys I got a question,would it be possible to run project magenta for the glass and use leveld and fsconv for everything else without any conflicts?

Bob Reed

05-23-2007, 08:45 PM

Hi guys I got a question,would it be possible to run project magenta for the glass and use leveld and fsconv for everything else without any conflicts?

No...If there is another autopilot involved PM gets all ticked off and the 2 autopilots fight for control of the aircraft. The aircraft gets tossed around with nothing controlling it.

imported_767300

05-23-2007, 09:04 PM

Very interesting,thats a bummer because Ive spent alot for the glass autopilot and pm solutions but all this negative feedback worries me about project magenta ,and with the advent of FSCONV making things easier I really dont know what to choose from.I have downloaded both of them and ready to go with FDT sim boards but I dont want things being in conflict with each other.:-x

Bob Reed

05-23-2007, 09:26 PM

The hardware is not the problem It is trying to use some of the aircraft with PM. If the company does there own autopilot then you pretty much can not use that aircraft with PM unless you know how to remove all there panels and on some of the ac this is not possible like the PMDG 747.

garyk007

05-23-2007, 09:27 PM

I spent most of yesterday on the cockpitware forums.
This is what I found.

They are making a glass cockpit for the 737.
An integrated FMC/CDU and autopilot functions.

So essentially its about the same funtionality as PM but it is free.
The problem is timing. They have released the glass cockpit already but are still a bit away from the release of the FMC.

So in the mean time I will get my cockpit up and running using the basic offsetsfrom flightsim.
For eg there are offsets for fuel pump, lights, starters, battery, generators etc.
I figure this is enough to get some of the switches on the overhead panel to work and using the glass cocpit software that is already released I can get the sim to a flyable state even if all the switches are not yet functional.
Hopefully in the comming months we will see a release of the FMC etc.

If cockpitware stops for some reason then I may be forced into PM, but I will hold out for as long as possible.

Thoughts?

Bob Reed

05-23-2007, 09:31 PM

There is an early but working MCP too!

garyk007

05-24-2007, 07:49 AM

So I have been looking into the cockpitware stuff.

Got it to work with FS :D

Have a question that maybe someone can answer:
It has a MCP right, well what are the offsets, so that I can use its functions.
Are they the same as the standard FS ones?
How can this be?
FS does not have some of the functions, like VNAV, LNAV, N1 etc.

Also for all the opencockpit gurus, is it possible to include a timer in the code.
For eg if I wanted to flick a switch and have an annunciator come on after a second or 2 but not straight away.
Is this possible.

Peter maybe you could answer this one.

I am making progress but it is a slow long process.:-?

Bob Reed

05-24-2007, 07:53 AM

So I have been looking into the cockpitware stuff.

Got it to work with FS :D

Have a question that maybe someone can answer:
It has a MCP right, well what are the offsets, so that I can use its functions.
Are they the same as the standard FS ones?
How can this be?
FS does not have some of the functions, like VNAV, LNAV, N1 etc.

Well I have not looked that close. Does there MCP do Vnav and Lnav? I did not see any offsets, what I saw was keystrokes which can be done in FSUIPC as well. You will have to contact them to make sure.