Motorized Joyrider

[TronicGr]

Hello, I just want to show you my motion cockpit based on joyrider but with a big difference. Its moved directly by car wiper motors.

In the video I also used the TrackIr4 pro flying an F16 in virtual cockpit.


Full motion Flight Sim + TrackIR4 Pro on a F16

YouTube - Full motion Flight Sim + TrackIR4 Pro on a F16



Full motion Flight Sim + TrackIR4 Pro on a Cessna182

YouTube - Full motion Flight Sim + TrackIR4 Pro on a Cessna182



motion flight simulator 2 axis operational

YouTube - motion flight simulator 2 axis operational




Added some more (15-6-2007):


Full motion sim on Cessna v2:

YouTube - Full motion sim on Cessna v2


Full motion sim on F16 v2:
YouTube - Full motion sim on F16 v2



Have fun!



Thanos

[Jim NZ]

Great stuff Thanos.
Things are working.
What did you use for the interface ??

Jim

[TronicGr]

Hello Jim,

I used Basic Stamp2 running a special proportional servo code that sets the rotation speed and direction of the HB-25 motor controllers that drive the motors. Of course the BS2 also reads the feedback potentiometers placed on the rotation points to know the angle of each axis.

Its awesome that the Basic Stamp2 does all the required measurements, calculations and driving the motors while the serial transmition rate is only 2400bps!! Right now it retrieves 6 bytes of data on each cycle while the refresh rate of Keith's Portdrvr is 54ms!

The BS2 command that reads the data:
SERIN 16,396,500,timedOut,[WAIT("KD"),HEX2 Lights,HEX2 Pitch,HEX2 Bank,HEX2 turncoord]

Any more questions are welcome!

How is your motion cockpit going?


Thanos

[Jim NZ]

Sounds fantastic Thanos, and boy, are you going to regret allowing more questions !!!

Motion is one **** of a thrill when you finally get it going ,,, I would never go back, thats for real.

Your post is real good timing for me as at the moment I have the motion base all built, electrics, drives, some electronics all in place and am poised to finally decide which way i am going to drive the thing.. Been looking hard at velleman or picaxe but keith's portdrv kept nagging in my brain.

I have allowed the next 4 months to have something operational, so time is running out fast.

A few questions to start with ...
Are you using the commonly available portdrv or is it a newer one ?
Will it work with FSX ??
If I went down the same road, would I be able to get the basic stamp code ??

I got to admit, never researched the basic stamp at all and in the last few minutes, had a quick search and it certainly looks interesting.

Trying to hold back my uncontrollable curiousity here !!!

Thanks for the info, Thanos, its great timing.
Cheers,
Jim

[TronicGr]

Right now I'm using en experimental version of Portdrvr that has some motion washout routines implement but need perfection. This new version outputs a ton of info. More than you can ever needed:

KD{booleans}[pitch][bank][airspeed][rpm][turncoord][vertspeed][gforce][altabovegnd]{CR}

Its under development and not ready yet for public release...
See more info on http://www.etherealsounds.com

It doesn't work yet with FSX as microsoft changed the gauges to XML style and needs conversion. I hope Keith will make a FSX compatible version soon.

As for the basic stamp2 servo code, I can sent you a copy to use on your cockpit. Its pretty simple, on connections too, just two potentiemeter inputs and two servo outputs. No end limit switches needed! The only limitation is that it is designed to drive HB-25 motor controllers, I can't say for sure how it can react on other servo systems...

Regards, Thanos

[Michael Carter]

That's great work. I think Hans would be interested in this.

[Jim NZ]

Hi Thanos, Yes thats more than a good chuck of the data you need for a motion platform and Keith has really got the speed going well.

The basic stamp and the HB-25 look to be a good combo, but the HB-25 isnt available in NZ so might have to source from overseas if I go down that road. Not cheap though !!!!

I cant believe the timing of this, just hovering as to which way to go and this is certainly another option.
I will have a study of the code etc (I got your e'mail) and go from there Thanos.

The "return to center" will sort itself out as time goes on as long as Keith keeps working on it, and Im sure he has his finger on the pulse with that one.

Any idea when the portdrv you are playing with will be released ???

Cheers ... Jim

[TronicGr]

Hi Jim,

I also had to purchase the HB-25 motors directly from parallax (overseas) but its the best available motor controller for what it does... It can handle up to 25amp of current and motors sized up to 1/2 hp!! Plus it needs only one servo pulse to keep rotating the motor to the desired speed and direction!!

If you decide to go this way, you will have as much help from me is needed to make it move in less than a week. It took me only two days after I connected the motors to program it and tune its proportional servo code...!

If you like you can contact Keith and became a member of the Beta testing crew!! We need feedback from different motion cockpit designs to fine tune the washout code (aka return to center) so it can used in as many as possible.

The next version may take some months to be released, as many routines need to coded together and tested thoroughly since some motion cockpits may became dangerous if this gets out of control! If you join the beta team, you can play with what we have so far!

Send me your email address so I can sent you the BS2 code to look at it.

Regards, Thanos

[Roland]

Just as a side note:

Thanos' setup makes use of readily available hardware, which is not very expensive either. Seeing the result, it has a lot going for it.
Keith, Thanos and I have been discussing / working / testing to improve the portdrv utility for having more options on different types of motion platyforms.
Currently I'm redesigning my platform for 3doF: Pitch-Roll-Heave. All pre-development tests (software and hardware) have shown promising results, so I'm pretty confident that it will be succesful. I'll update my website regularly.

Roland

[kjg71]

Thanos,

Do you have any shots of the motors. couldn't really see them or how they were hooked up from the videos.

The pitch one must be moving with the whole pitch cable unit?

Are the wiper motors newer model motors or the older ones that have worm gears that hold position when under pull?

I am currently working with power window motors but would like to explore all options.

...also the HB-25 looks good, but I am under the assumption that it is only works with microcontrollers that support pwm frequency changing vs strait pwm voltage changing right?....as an example I am current working with the velleman K8055 board.

great job on your setup very smooth!!

[TronicGr]

Hi kjg71,

I have posted detailed photos of the motor connections on my robotics forum:

Motor to pulley connection:
http://www.ptyxiouxos.net/greekbotics/e107/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?1070.50

Motor to racks connection:
http://www.ptyxiouxos.net/greekbotics/e107/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?1070.100


The pitch motor is fixed on the bank cimbal as seen here:
http://www.ptyxiouxos.net/greekbotics/e107/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?1070.120

The car wiper motors, I use, have worm gears and hold their position when they powered off no matter how force you apply to them. They are from old Nissan 85' model B-11.

No, the HB-25 just needs a standard servo pulse that sets the motors direction and speed. It should work fine with velleman. But you have to implement some short of proportional control code to position it on the desired angle since you must play with speed, not position like standard servo.


Are you making motion cockpit too? Any photos of it?

Regards, Thanos


PS. If clicking the above links doesn't work, copy the links and place then on a now iexplorer window :-) .

[Jim NZ]

Hi Thanos,
Yes I got the code and thanks a lot for it. Had a quick look and it seems not too bad to get ones head around.
Will study it at the week-end and refer to the manual etc ,,, certainly looks promising. ,, especially the HB-25 units, didn't even know such a unit existed.

There are getting more and more possibilitys out there now with so many simmers getting into motion, it takes a wee bit to keep up with the play.

Great stuff !!! It all helps to keep the gray matter working !!!
Will get back in touch if I go down your interesting road.

Thanks again Thanos ... Jim

[kjg71]

Hi Thanos,
thanks for those links. That was exactly what I was looking for. I am using window motors and they do not have worm gears to hold so I may need to investigate the wipers. Another person used those a while back for a g-motion similator and they are gaining popularity.
Right now I am using EZIO and velleman I/O boards for simplicity.

I can use PWM in locked antiphase mode for a one-line speed control of motors up to 5 and 7 amp (6 and 20 amp) stall. Which is working fine but I like the versitility of the HB-25 and it is about half the price of my 7 amp (20 max) bridge and will do 35 amp max. wow!

Be interesting to see how this performs and if it takes a variable voltage. I question how to do reversal though, if the controller isn't set up to do things that way.

For $45 it's almost worth just getting one to see.
to help clarify I send 0-511 for off to full clockwise (511 is full and 256 is half speed) then 512-1023 for the same but in the other direction (Counterclockwise)...not sure how the HB-25 is going to handle that?.....if you have any comments on that, it would be welcomed.

currently:
For low amp motors I am using NMIH-0050
For med/high amp motors I am using D-rex controller
see new micros site under H-bridge catagory
http://www.newmicros.com/
---------------------------------------
For med/high amp motors that do not need speed controll I am using a custom circuit with auto relays and a Current TTL DriverBoard. I should be able to make these for $12 each they can handle 30 amps and with full reversable - no speed controll though. this is for motors where their top speed is going as fast as they can and you don't need speed control or washout. example power seat chasis for heave or small bumps etc.
--------------------------------------
working on polishing up my site more but I do have a year old video that turned out pretty good. Let me tweak some things and I'll post a link asap
-----------------------------------------
This whole project started as a way to add motion to movies so you would have "feeltracks" that would provide 2-5 degrees of freedom, but then it turned into a gaming system thing and then I am working on adding environmental effect as well.

As many already know here in the forum ...these projects can consume you.....but I am still trying to stay on-track (hard sometimes).

Right now I have yaw and pitch working (the easiest) and are wrapping up surge and heave...and then finally roll and g-motion (a slight variation of the roll module)
also are adding pedal attachments, yoke/wheel attachments and other things that are detouring me from getting the motion stuff done

Like many of you I am trying to create one of the first or (one of the now many) affordable motion systems.....I think it has been long overdue
The difference with mine is that I am really looking to enhance movies as well as non-sim flight and racing games (there are alot of good titles - even older ones out there)
The design, once I get a few things tweaked is quite simple compared to some of the elaborite cokpit ideas but I am gearing it to work with racing and space as well as flight sim/games and with motion there is somewhat of a weight trade-off too

I am looking at more of a flight/race chair with attachments for all the extra controls etc.....going after something that looks good in a living room (or at least acceptable :)

Currently, I only support game contoller control at the momement.
Was talking to Craig T. from I-vibe about some game data incorporation as well as incorporation of his i-vibe seat with the movie tracks, but things have been slow on that path.
Many thanks to the innovators like Jim, Roland, Craig W. and yourself (as well others, of course) for what has been done so far with motion!

I also have to tip my hat to tornado-blu (don't really know his real name) for his success (see his site below)
http://digilander.libero.it/tornadoblu5/index1.htm

I think everyone can agree that with what we have seen so far $500-$1500 full motion is on the way!
standby I'll post a link to my project soon.....just want to tweak a few things first.

Regards, Kyle

[wannabeaflyer]

Hi Thanos managed to get hold of a tutorial on basic stamp and wonder if it would be possible for you to send me a copy of the code so that i can see if i can get my head around your option ..Kinda like the idea of the modular approach your option offers as i tend to look at whats out there and see if its something that i can use... in my motion sim .... i already have aset of IOcards servo and Motor driver pcbs and wondered if i could use th HB-25 to allow me to control my motors Cheers got the data sheets on the HB-25 and Pic stamps so like jim will see if i can match things up :-)

[AndyT]

ARRRgghhhhhh !!!
You beat me to it!
I'm re-building my pit into a joyrider with motion. I have 2 12v wheelchair motors to use for the drives and I plan on building the joyrider in such a way so that I can add yaw to it later much like what Jim has built.

One of these days I'm going to have some money AND time to work on it both at once....

Thats just beeeutiful man! I love it!

[TronicGr]

Hi Kyle,

>to help clarify I send 0-511 for off to full clockwise (511 is full and 256 is half speed) then 512-1023 for the same but in the other direction (Counterclockwise)...not sure how the HB-25 is going to handle that?.....if you have any comments on that, it would be welcomed.<

Wow! you have 1024 bits resolution on positioning?! I only use 8-bit resolution aka 256 points with 127 center. I don't know the programming of the microcontroller are you using but I think you could output a simple servo pulse within these values. For example to output a servo pulse in basic stamp2 I use the 8-bit variable input from computer along with an offset value that centers the servo: {8bit_input} + ({offset} - {8bit_input/2}) *where offset is 750 in BS2.

Likewise in your controller you have to find the center servo pulse that stops the motor and then add the input values. If nessasary you could scale down the resolution to fit the servo pulse within the 1ms - 2ms range. Its simple math. Keep in mind that the HB-25 works with setting its speed not its position, and feedback control is nessasary to actually position it. I've implemented such a feedback servo using proportional math to control the speed and its direction until it reaches the desired point and its speed gradually is set to zero. I could make it respond ever faster by increasing the proportionality constant but that stressed much the motor and the power supply requiring more than 15 amps in sudden moves.

I've also seen tornado-blue's motion sim before but I was already had made the joyrider. And on top of that I could not find and blacksmith capable of making the frames like in his design. I made mine in a room in my home with no special tools. All parts are just bolted toggether!

Anyway, looking forward for photos or vids of your setup!

Regards, Thanos




PS, Calvin, I already PM you my email to contact me.

[TronicGr]

I plan on building the joyrider in such a way so that I can add yaw to it later much like what Jim has built.

I would like to have it move in yaw direction too! For now I combined the yaw forces into the roll to simulate the inbalance of center of gravity if you perform a non-coordinated turn (see the turncoordination ball instrument).
Feels good but if the whole platform turned around like Jims, would be excellent!!

PS, Sorry AndyT!! :-)

Cheers, Thanos

[kjg71]

Hi Thanos,

actually the one EZIO brand I/O board is 10 bit for pwm and 8 for all digital inputs and the Vellamen K8055 seems to be 8, but could not find the specs for vellemen pwm so I am assuming 8.

as mentioned I am only working with game controller control and as such are not requiring encoders for positioning as it is strictly a "follow the stick" deal....or button...throttle...whatever.

I have limiters and did have an optical centering sensor but they are just digital switches that keeps things in check (and from stopping the motor)

When I do eventually add encoders (and they will be needed for game data control or at least good data control) It can detect 1024 positions but I would say it's less sensative then that.

This is the same with pwm output. A speed of 66% does not seem much different then 70% to me. At 77% I can see the change. I think it has alot to do with the equiptment and stress on the motors/mechanics to.

What I have (on the EZIO board at least) is a constant pwm at 18Hz

see specs this might clear up things.

http://www.ezio.com/support/specifications.asp

I think I get what your saying...but when I send 256 (my half speed clockwise, it doesn't really stop at that position like a servo, it just continues.....so I have direction and speed but not positioning via the pwm line. Stopping is 511.

Now after reading your 2nd paragraph I think I see what you are getting at. You are describing taking the inputs of the encoders (if and when I add them) and calculating the position vs how far it needs to go (assumes speed never changes) to get to where the new position should be. Kind of turning a gearhead motor into a servo?

Kind of a high-end industrial servo but on a budget?

....so anyway it sound like speed and direction might work ok with HB-25 with pwm varible voltage line...but maybe I am still wrong?

here is a link the the vellemen board if interested

http://www.velleman.be/ot/en/product/view/?id=351346

There are a number of languages you could use with these boards but I am using lingo for the programming. This is more then likely a very non-familiar language to many here as it is a multimedia scripting language similar to basic I guess.

The whole project was to be motion movie tracks and timeline based triggered motion, so I am using lingo inside Macromedia director as it allows you to control scripts with game controllers, sound triggers and inputs from external sensors. The game controller efforts was taking it that extra experiemental mile.

I will not use this environment for "game data" control as I will need to use x-sim, a forum users solution or I-vibe to help with that.

I foresee pros and cons of both control methods but are trying to get all motion and mechanics ironed out before diving into the hardcore "game telemetry" stuff.

I'll try to get my site updated soon and send out a link.

Regards, Kyle

[TronicGr]

....so anyway it sound like speed and direction might work ok with HB-25 with pwm varible voltage line...but maybe I am still wrong?

here is a link the the vellemen board if interested

http://www.velleman.be/ot/en/product/view/?id=351346


Well I checked the velleman... You have to connect the HB-25 on a digital port and pulse it within the 1ms ~ 2ms range, with 1ms center that stops the motor rotating either direction. I suppose you can do this in programming. Don't use its analog ports cause they only output voltage, not frequency.

Yes, what I have implemented is a big servo! With basic stamp its tunning is very easy. I can adjust the reaction speed or the mount of ramping near the end stops, something simple servos can't do! Feels good in its motion too!

Cheers, Thanos

[TronicGr]

Hi Thanos managed to get hold of a tutorial on basic stamp and wonder if it would be possible for you to send me a copy of the code so that i can see if i can get my head around your option ..Kinda like the idea of the modular approach your option offers as i tend to look at whats out there and see if its something that i can use... in my motion sim .... i already have aset of IOcards servo and Motor driver pcbs and wondered if i could use th HB-25 to allow me to control my motors Cheers got the data sheets on the HB-25 and Pic stamps so like jim will see if i can match things up :-)

Calvin, please check your PM...

Rgrds, Thanos

[kjg71]

Thanks for the reply Thanos!



Well I checked the velleman... You have to connect the HB-25 on a digital port and pulse it within the 1ms ~ 2ms range, with 1ms center that stops the motor rotating either direction. I suppose you can do this in programming. Don't use its analog ports cause they only output voltage, not frequency.


hmmm ....currently I am limited to just sending a 1 or 0 to the lines. I am not quite sure how to send something other or then that or what middle piece I can use to to convert it into a servo signal? Any suggestions? I suppose with two Digital lines I could control direction and on off to HB-25, but speed might be out.

I am almost thinking that if I want to work with HB-25 I will need to use a different controller (servo controller) that works with my programming?

K8055 and ezio is certainly not that (unless there is a good middle piece of electronic that converts pwm votage to pwm frequency (mS).

You would almost think that something like this is out there?

well .....I think that your method is really better then what I am doing with just voltage. If you are controlling speed, position, direction (and even ramping) through 1 line to a low-cost gear motor, then you have really got something. Speed & direction is great but position and ramping is even better. I would love to eventually be able to add those. (It must feel so realistic!):-D

Whats very interesting is that your not using physical encoders for position, but rather math to help guess (or know) the current position based on the angle/speed of the motor. At least that is the way I am understanding it

Sounds almost like a "virtual" encoder

If that is the case then ...Wow...that is really" innovative.

great stuff!!

regards, Kyle

[TronicGr]

Hi Kyle,

Yes, a servo controller is needed. Thats why I used Basic Stamp2. It can drive servos easily and in the same time be able to receive from the computer's serial port the data needed to drive them, input the motors position feedback thru simple potentiometers and calculate all the math that is required to produce a smooth motion.

But the Basic Stamp2 isn't designed to do more than 2 or 3 axis motion simultaneous. Its a slow microcontroller compared to other in its family. There are other that run in twice of its speed and can handle even more axis. Why don't you try Propeller? Its inside microprocessor consists of 8 BS2 that each one can run its own set of commands in the same time like working in parallel !!! Check Parallax's site for more info: www.parallax.com

*Update: in a quick search in parallax I came up with this Spin Stamp Microcontroller:
http://www.parallax.com/detail.asp?product_id=SS1-IC
Parallax's description: "The Propeller is a multi-processing chip with eight 32-bit processors (cogs) and shared memory with 32KB of RAM and 32 KB of ROM holding a font, math tables, and Spin interpreter"

I AM using simple potentiometers to encode its position but its not connected on the motors shaft as you may think but in the frames rotation joint to actually measure angles!! I use my proportional code to move the motor to the direction of the desired angle and i ramping it down a few degrees before it reached the setpoint to avoid overshoot and bouncing.

As you may already figured, I play with serial data streams and servo data. I don't use on-off logic at all! My motion cockpit doesn't even has limit switches since the code is limiting the max travel automaticaly!

Hope it all cames clear now.

Regards, Thanos

[TronicGr]

Hi Kyle, I was re-reading all your posts and here are some notes:


>>The whole project was to be motion movie tracks and timeline based triggered motion, so I am using lingo inside Macromedia director as it allows you to control scripts with game controllers, sound triggers and inputs from external sensors. The game controller efforts was taking it that extra experiemental mile.<<

So you must using K8055 and ezio because they have ready communication DLLs with Macromedia Director right? Thats to avoid getting more in the microcontroller communication details.



>>I am almost thinking that if I want to work with HB-25 I will need to use a different controller (servo controller) that works with my programming?K8055 and ezio is certainly not that (unless there is a good middle piece of electronic that converts pwm voltage to pwm frequency (mS).You would almost think that something like this is out there?<<


I have an idea. Since you have to use your boards "K8055 and ezio" to output analog voltages to a motor you could use a little trick: You can connect the K8055 analog voltage output an external microcontrollers ADC inputs that its programmed to translate voltage to values. The microcontroller can translate really easy the voltage values into servo commands. I already do that by reading the voltage that the position feedback potetiometers returns to the ADC circuits of my basic stamp! So you can easily have an external voltage-driven servo motor! Thats sounds like a nice little project! hehe... And you know what? I was already implemeted such voltage driven servo to tune the motion of my cockpit with voltage measured on a potentiometer before I had it connected to read actual flight data from the computer!!! If you gonna use basic stamp2 you can use my analog input HB-25 servo code. I can send you a copy to try it. Just a note: To filter the PWM voltage noice you may need to add a small capacitor as a voltage depot and make it steady enouph for the ADC circuits to measure.

So, I made some minor modifications on my BS2 servo code so it can position the motor just by feeding it with analog voltages (0 volts to +5 volts) to be able to use it with your existing velleman or ezio controllers. Don't expect huge resolution as it is just an 8-bit microcontroller but its very robust in what it can do. With this, all you get is a 2 analog input and 2 servo outputs. As I said before you could always try other microcontrollers Spin Stamp Microcontroller (Propeller) that have ten times the performance of the simple Basic Stamp2. But then again, a different programming is needed which I don't have the knowledge to do.

If you like the idea and want to try it, PM me your email to send you the BS2 code and the schematic with the connections.


Regards, Thanos

[kjg71]

Thanos,
Sorry about the delayed response....had a relatives funeral, a wedding and preparation for a new job interview coming up ....so this weekend was so swamped!!
yes I am using those microcontrollers for their high level ease of use with the director environment /DLL utilizion.

<QUOTE>
little trick: You can connect the K8055 analog voltage output an external microcontrollers ADC inputs that its programmed to translate voltage to values.</QUOTE>

I'll try to explain how I was (eventually) going to do positional encoding and then realy back how I understand your method so I am clear (I actually had to read your post a couple times)

currently plan was to use linear pots that will move with the cables / mechanics and attach them to the ADC (Analog to Digital Convertor) inputs. The software would read those and store the value as reference and querys the current position until it reaches that (as to when the motors stops). This logic of course is done in the same code that run the motor oporation. This of course requires that I have physical encoders vs that nice virtual encoder method you are using. My I/O boards will not generate servo commands though.

your method almost sounds like you did use physical encoders at fist? see quote below:

<QUOTE>
voltage measured on a potentiometer before I had it connected to read actual flight data from the computer!!! </QUOTE>

...so sounds like you got it to work....that's good

Now, on to your method......

It sounds like I would only use the k8055 or ezio to send PWM then BS2 (with a small capacitor before entering)....this final run-through would convert it to servo code.
As you are stating, speed and direction would be no longer set in pwm voltage, but rather by the distance traveld to get from one position to the next (with response set in BS2 so motor and supply is not stressed to much) I actually don't set my pwm speed full either or it would rip everything apart.

In this method, it sound like BS2 and HB-25 could be the missing link I was refering to as the "PWM voltage to servo signal convertor".

......Lots of things to consider here. I am wondering if I shouldn't just finish up the mechanics, get all to work well with limiters and pwm speed and direction change and then to the "switch" over to the "pwm voltage to servo " way

I can see my current setup being pretty easy but I will not have the accuracy of the servo way if I don't gear up for that. At some point I think this servo way will adapt itself better to recieve game telemetry as well (it's hard to say on that right now).
One major drawback is these boards only have 2 pwm ports each. I would like to see if I could make a 6 port pwm K8055 and have the whole thing on 1 board.

I love the idea you have, but might hold off until I can round out the system as a whole. I think this would be a major upgrade / replacement for any physical encoder idea I would have.....to some extent my current positional code would be streamline too.

I will PM you to get that code and schematic so I have it on record. and for everyone else reading, I will post a link to my site end of the today or tomorrow morning at the latest so you can see all this craziness!

regards, Kyle

[TronicGr]

Hi Kyle,


As you are stating, speed and direction would be no longer set in pwm voltage, but rather by the distance traveld to get from one position to the next (with response set in BS2 so motor and supply is not stressed to much) I actually don't set my pwm speed full either or it would rip everything apart.

Actually the voltage will provide the final position you would like have the motors to be placed. So for example a 2.5 volt will center the motor position, an 0 volt value will position the motor to its far left end, and a 5 volt will position the motor to the far right end. Any other intermediate voltage values will place the motor to various positions. You will not have to worry about speed anymore. As long you sending smooth voltage changes to my BS2 servo controller you will have a smooth positioning.

If you can, use the two pure analog output ports of Velleman controller to avoid any noise that the PWM may produce, as its designed to drive motors.

I will send you the BS2 firmware along with all the connection diagrams.
Regards, Thanos

[kjg71]

Here you go Thanos, plus everyone else for that matter

...here is my site after cleaning things up a bit.

FINALLY!! :D

The "Feelfx" project was to be the exploration of movie tracks that would add tactile and motion effects to your seat / chair.

While I was pleased with the initial test, I was quickly moved into trying it with gaming, as such to provide interactive feedback from various game controllers to the motors.

The Final idea is to run 5 DOF. The pictures are 6 months old as I have been working on add-ons new motions (only yaw and pitch is shown) and improvements in the software and seperate controller houseing with quick connects.

The site has a somewhat official feel and a "first look" video that seems like a marketing video, but know that the video was kind of a fun thing that was put together and serves more as a example of a product demo as I do small side videography work and wanted to do other type of video. The mention of patented stuff and mentioning "we" and "corporation presents" is not real it's just added to make it sound more official. ....Again, just ficticious fun here.

It may help to download the 13 Mb "first look" video and run local for best performance. The other videos should not have an issue. From a technical standpoint, everything in the video is currently running or close to being done, except counsel platform and rudder pedal support. Some of the graphics in the video could be improved, but as mentioned, it's just a little sample thing.

Even though I gave the site a somewhat business persona......know that the entire project is a "one man" show (me) ...and that The site is there to offer as much information and software relating to the project as I have collected Downloads are also free (when the downloads are ready).

I don't think I would be where I am if it wasn't for the sharing of knowledge that is out here on these forums. Contrary to what the project might look like, know that I have no immediate plans to sell electronic controls, plans or build anything for sale. Instead I am wanting to get the site out so it may provide enough information for others to get started on their own designs. As I have said before, you can really make motion work without spending alot. The $2000-$6000 solutions are really out of reach of most. Their are other ways.


Maybe later down the road I may do something more with it if things turn out well with it, but I think for now it's best to just share the site as an idea resource as so many have before me.

You'll notice this is very much different then a cockpit design that may be found on this forum. I tried to think universal in that it is geared to driving, space craft, flight and movies. However I have been working on the attachments for wheels, yokes, pedals etc. to have the option to be less "chair" and more "cockpit" Modularity and universal was really my thinking here.

After the initial link below, choose the large "motion system" buttons to enter the site

enjoy......feedback always welcome

http://www.feelfx.com/

[TronicGr]

After major tuning my servo code and rearrangement of the side motor mount, I took another couple of video of it moving fast like ****. I need to install a new racing bucket seat with six-point belts before I'll attempt to ride it again with the new tuning. Now it works with 50% more speed than before and the reaction time is also reduced down by 50%.

I integrated some g-forces and enviromental effects into the motion so now it just follows the swing of the plane during turbulence. And as if that wasn't enouph I did some crash tests to see how hitting the ground in various angles affects the cockpit's motion.

You may noticed on the 54second position of the video on the cessna, I impulsively extend my hand to catch the rail because my mind was really believed that I was going to fall off the side even if the logic part knows that the cockpit is restricted from flipping over. You can't think of the immersion it creates... With an enclosure canopy will be really scary!!!


Full motion sim on Cessna v2:
YouTube - Full motion sim on Cessna v2


Full motion sim on F16 v2:
YouTube - Full motion sim on F16 v2


Regards, Thanos

[kjg71]

Thanos,

Wow, that's so smooth. I suppose the 6-point belt seat would add to the experience. Seems like you would get a little G-force pressure there with the belts that may add to make it seem even better.

I know you mention. "enclosure canopy " ...but what is it like in the dark?...surely the experience changes? :)

If you have seen my site you'll notice that I use cable/chain, but I have wondered if I can do better with cable/pulley...Your setup does look insanely smooth.

regards Kyle

[TronicGr]

Hello to all,

I made some new video with dogfights on Combat Flight Simulator2:

I mounted the camera inside the cockpit to take the first one!!



Full Motion Flight Sim on CFS2 Corsair Cockpit View:

YouTube - Full Motion Flight Sim on CFS2 Corsair Cockpit View



Full Motion Flight Sim on CFS2 Corsair:

YouTube - Full Motion Flight Sim on CFS2 Corsair


Regards, Thanos

[tour93]

I was researching ideas for a car racing sim and found this forum.<o></o>
I would guess car racing sim would be easier to manage than plane sim.<o></o>
All your videos are really interesting and congratulation on your simulator, looks very good.<o></o>
But I am kind of annoyed with what I see.
Your simulator and everyone I have seen match whatever your joystick is doing:<o></o>
bank 10° left, simulator banks 10° left<o></o>
bank 30° right, simulator banks 30° right or whatever maximum it is capable.<o></o>
<o></o>
So if you want your sim to act like the plane (attitude) it's fine, an outside viewer can compare your sim attitude with what he sees on the screen and that will match.<o></o>
But if you want your sim to act an airplane what you fly it needs to act to match what you should feel in a given attitude:<o></o>
High speed bank left, sim attitude should be up and banking a little bit on the right to match the feeling of being pushed down your seat.(centrifugal force), and so on.<o></o>
Remember "Back to the future" ride at Disney.<o></o>
<o></o>
For a car it would be easier:<o></o>
turn left, sim bank right<o></o>
turn right, sim bank left<o></o>
accelerate, sim pitch up<o></o>
decelerate, sim pitch down.<o></o>
<o></o>
Any thoughts?<o></o>
<o></o>
Alain

[kjg71]

<O></O>
But if you want your sim to act an airplane what you fly it needs to act to match what you should feel in a given attitude:<O></O>
High speed bank left, sim attitude should be up and banking a little bit on the right to match the feeling of being pushed down your seat.(centrifugal force), and so on.<O></O>
Remember "Back to the future" ride at Disney.<O></O>
<O></O>
For a car it would be easier:<O></O>
turn left, sim bank right<O></O>
turn right, sim bank left<O></O>
accelerate, sim pitch up<O></O>
decelerate, sim pitch down.<O></O>
<O></O>
Any thoughts?<O></O>
<O></O>
Alain

Hi Alain, and welcome to this forum.

I believe what you are refering to is G-motion not Full motion....both are interesting effects and it is really personal preference.

You are correct in what you are saying about the move to opposite side for the G-force feeling. I can't speak for Thanos, but I believe for racing he actually does the opposite (or at least can change it to preference) steer left, roll right...steer right, roll left etc.

For home motion sims it seems the trend is to go with either pitch and roll (best for pilots) or yaw/G-motion for the race/track sims..

Roll can certainly replace yaw or G-force simulation....as Thanos is doing, and I can imagine it comes somewhat close (hard to say .....never experienced driving with a joyrider design.)...guess Thanos would have to comment on how he thinks it feels for the driving sims.

Personally, for driving. I would kind of favor the frex design which is slight roll (oppisite of turn) with wheel and pedal staying in place. This is the G-motion you speak of. This of course is what I would prefer if I had to chose one over the other for driving.....unless you could afford to build one for driving and then one just for flight.

The ultimate of course would be one that does all.......yaw (for full-motion) Frex Roll style (for G-motion) and then a quick lever you could pull to switch the roll back to standard (wheel/yoke) moves with Roll) for when playing a flight sim.

Now you got me actually thinking about the "switch lever" idea...hmmm...that would definately be a little challange.

I am not sure you could have the best of both worlds when it came to the flight sim unless the seat itself was moving opposite of the rest of simulator (now we are talking about motion motors for the seat itself). When roll simulator went left, seat would roll (or shift) opposite to the right (slightly)...trying to picture this and it is kind of hard to visualize.....at least on a small affordable scale.....I think gravity is what you are going to be fighting with.

....maybe in this case one of those i-vibe seats (g-force simulation via vibe cues) would be better for G-motion while your simulator did the full motion rolling moves.

hope this gives you some ideas on some of the different ways of thinking/styles.....again, alot of it is really a personal preference:-)

Regards, Kyle

[TronicGr]

I was researching ideas for a car racing sim and found this forum.<o></o>
I would guess car racing sim would be easier to manage than plane sim.<o></o>
All your videos are really interesting and congratulation on your simulator, looks very good.<o></o>
But I am kind of annoyed with what I see.
Your simulator and everyone I have seen match whatever your joystick is doing:<o></o>
bank 10° left, simulator banks 10° left<o></o>
bank 30° right, simulator banks 30° right or whatever maximum it is capable.<o></o>
<o></o>
So if you want your sim to act like the plane (attitude) it's fine, an outside viewer can compare your sim attitude with what he sees on the screen and that will match.<o></o>
But if you want your sim to act an airplane what you fly it needs to act to match what you should feel in a given attitude:<o></o>
High speed bank left, sim attitude should be up and banking a little bit on the right to match the feeling of being pushed down your seat.(centrifugal force), and so on.<o></o>
Remember "Back to the future" ride at Disney.<o></o>
<o></o>
For a car it would be easier:<o></o>
turn left, sim bank right<o></o>
turn right, sim bank left<o></o>
accelerate, sim pitch up<o></o>
decelerate, sim pitch down.<o></o>
<o></o>
Any thoughts?<o></o>
<o></o>
Alain


Hi Alain,

I already made the joyrider move with g-forces in a driving simulator. And it moves as you describe. It even shakes you around when hits the wall...


YouTube - FMS on LiveForSpeed (X-sim) with fixed response time

and here in DVD quality:
http://rapidshare.com/files/48921586/FMSxsimlfsfixedresponce.zip

And the motion is mostly irrelavant of the wheel action. It depends on the g-forces you receive during cornering and accerelaration-braking... You can even see it respond on gear shifting!!



But if you want your sim to act an airplane what you fly it needs to act to match what you should feel in a given attitude:<o></o>
High speed bank left, sim attitude should be up and banking a little bit on the right to match the feeling of being pushed down your seat.(centrifugal force), and so on.

In these video simulating the acceleration wasn't fully implemented. Portdrvr is now supporting acceleration and much more, but its just being under beta testing now to perfect it before shooting more videos with showing the proper acceleration motion.


Regards, Thanos

PS. No its not permantly a car simulator now... If I remove the wheel I can use the stick for flying with no other modifications... :-)

[tour93]

Wow,
Thanos, this is pretty impressive. I like it :D
Do you tap into the telemetry data from the game to modify different car's accelerations or reaction to shifting (in automatic-mode) or the wheel and pedals control your movement?

Alain

[TronicGr]

Hi Alain,

Yes you can tap the telemetry data directly from the x-sim interface that retrieves them from LFS. You can change the max values to lower ones for slow cars that doesn't have so extreme performance on acceleration and have different acceleration profiles for each type of car.

All the movement is comming from the telemetry data (even the shift changes moves...!!).

More info on this stuff you can find on www.x-simulator.de

They also have german forum, but if you ask help in english they will reply also in english...!

Regards, Thanos

[tour93]

Thanks, this is great

[tour93]

All the info to start seems to be in that thread.
If I understood anything, everything I need for 2 motors is:

1 PC (with games and all the softwares from www.x-simulator.de)
serial cable or maybe USB to
2 BS2
to
2 HB-25
to
2 motors

Right?

Alain

[TronicGr]

Almost correct...

1 PC

1 basic stamp2

2 HB25 motor controllers

2 motors (car windscreen wipers are the best for this)


and...

1 car battery! (you can use two computer PSU but with their price a battery is performing much better!



Regards, Thanos

[tour93]

Thanks Thanos

[egoexpress]

Hi,

I've found you guys while searching for some details about Thanos's joyrider project.
I am impressed about the amount of knowledge and ideas in this forum!

First of all, I dont have the intention to lure members out of this forum ;)
But I would be pleased, if those, who are interested in the X-Sim Software and its additional feature, to get ForceFeedback effects out of games, would ask their X-Sim related questions in the x-simulator forum.
The software has much potential, but lacks some more people which use it.

We are trying to upgrade the X-Sim software to support electric actuators since some time.
But to be honest, Thanos is the first one, who realised a well working and replicable motor driven solution, to use the X-Sim data with motors.
And you guys have to acknowledge, that it works quite well ;)
Congrats Thanos! Amazing work!

We have developed a DIY stepper actuator, and a stepper control interface with encoder input. (http://www.x-simulator.de/forum/simforcegt-diy-usb-stepper-control-interface-wip-t420.html#2957) But it seems to be a flop, because of the weak steppers, which have not enough torque, to make fast direction changes in when operated with 5khz without motor stall.

Altough Thanos's servo driven joyrider works very well, we are developing an interface right now, which could be connected to any DC motor drivers via pmw output.

The X-Sim Software is able as well to use Peter Dowsons FSUIPC Plugin, and some additional features have been inmplemented, to be able to use it better with the Profiler.

And here is another guy, who uses sucessfully X-Sim with motors.
http://homepages.woosh.co.nz/cwarner/racecarsim.htm

So, while I will scroll through your amazing forum, everyone should feel himself as well wellcome in the X-Sim forum.
I wont make any additional, unrequested promotion....promised! :)
Remember that we all have the same goal! A perfect and cheap DIY simulator.

regards
ego

Btw, sorry Thanos, for going a little off topic in your thread ;)

[RobiD]

Hi Thanos,

I was chatting to you on your Greek site and found this forum in english. Great.

Quick question, when you were looking at wiper motors, did you look into which motors have stronger torque or were they all about the same torque.

Thanks
David

[wannabeaflyer]

Hi Guys just to share some of my past experiances with wiper motors .. they are cheap brilliant and seem up to the job but one thing i have found and it may just be my luck but of the 4 motor that i have they all seem to run slighty faster in one direction than the other ??? the electrical connection all bypass and speed controllers built into the motors so i figure it may be a design issue ... anyone want to chip in on this situation :-)

[IanH1960]

Suggests their "timing" might not be neutral ie the brush/commutator set up favours one direction of travel and they may not actually be true bi-directional motors.

Ian

[TronicGr]

Its true that car wiper motors are desinged to rotate only one direction. Thats way the rotate a little slower the other way. But using a microntroller you can control the speed of the rotation easily. That what I do with my proportional servo controller and have equal speeds on both directions! :-)

I'm making new motion controller, to replace the one I currently have, that is AVR based and it does multiple position checks per data set (motion data that recieved from the computer)! Thus more presice control of the speed and the position can be archieved this way. So far, the results from the tests looks good.

RobiD,
There are several car wiper motors, and the strongest I could find (and more expensive) were on BUS type vehicle. These are really strong motors!!!


Regards, Thanos

[TronicGr]

Hi to all,

I finally finished the long waited english version of my site.

Its still a draft but the most important things are there!

http://ptyxiouxos.net//greekbotics/user_projects/Flight_Simulator/thanos_home_motion_flight_simulator.htm

enjoy!

Regards, Thanos

[TronicGr]

Hi,

Its some days now that I posted the beta version of my avr motion controller for anyone is willing to test it. It can be found in this page:

http://www.x-simulator.de/forum/tronics-pwm-servo-control-interface-with-encoder-pot-input-t559-s70.html

I did my own tests using a german PWM motor controller (RN-VN2 Dualmotor controller) but I think that any PWM motor controller can be used too as long it has three inputs for each motor:
1. PWM signal,
2. Enable1,
3. Enable2

It retrieves data from serial port on 115200bps and drives the PWM channels for the motors on 23.74kHz !!!

Regards, Thanos

[RobiD]

Hi Thanos,

Where did you get the pulleys that you have attached to the wiper motors from, or what are they off of.

Thanks
David

[TronicGr]

Hi Thanos,

Where did you get the pulleys that you have attached to the wiper motors from, or what are they off of.

Thanks
David

I bought them from local hardware store. They are normaly used along with a hook on ships and sails to drive steel cables etc.


BTW, I implementing support for of KT-5198 motor controllers on my AVR motion controller either PWM or R/C connection! Soon I will post a relative beta version on it!

Regards, Thanos

[RobiD]

Thanks Thanos.

I will keep an eye on the thread for your post.

David

[rotorxtcy]

Hello;
Has anyone thought of using actuator (from ebay) to control motion? I know he has used wiper motors but I want to be able to make the unit cleaner without so much around it. I will be using three projectors and a LARGE wrap around screen for mine. I still want the motion but I don't want to use all the things necessary for the wiper motors it will take away from the outer view.
please advise if you have any suggestions, all good are welcome.:oops:
rotorxtcy