Question: Who would you rather have, a PPL or Sim Pilot?

[magicaldr]

OK this is a response to the question that started being discussed in another thread: http://www.mycockpit.org/forums/showthread.php?t=9811 and also to the letters in last months and this months 'Pilot' magazine in the UK.


The scenario is some in flight emergency has incapacitated the crew of a major heavy aircraft. Say a modern 747. Who should be in the cockpit? Would a PPL with 150 hours VFR on light singles be better than a FSX pilot who spends his whole life flying the PMDG 747?

Last month in 'Pilot' the letters page included a response from a sim pilot. His contention was that the PMDG sim pilot would have the best chance. Modern aircraft he contested are not just about being able to fly. Its understanding the complex systems that make up the cockpit, and if you press the right buttons they will pretty much land themselves.

This months 'Pilot' has the opposing view from a PPL with many hours both real and simulated. Pointing to a crashed aircraft which DNA showed was being flown by the chief steward after the crew were incapacitated by a pressurization problem. He wanted to know where the sim pilot was planning on flying so he could video the ensuing crash. His article ended with the question; Why do we pay pilots so much if you only have to push a few buttons? (They get paid for the times when the buttons don't work and you need a real, experienced and skilled pair of hands in my opinion.)

Personally I feel the PMDG pilot has more chance than the PPL. True he does not know what its like to fly an aircraft 'for real'. True things happen very fast, and there is no pause button. Then again he knows where things are in the cockpit. He can use the radios and call for help. He can program an approach and let the plane fly itself onto the runway. It may not be pretty, but he will get the aircraft onto a runway with all the emergency stuff ready for him.

The PPL wont have used any of this stuff, and a 747 does not handle like a piper. If he cant get his head round the auto pilot he wont have anywhere near as much chance as the PMDG pilot. There is hundreds of thousands of pounds of high tech computers there to make flying safer, but it wont do it if you dont know how to use it.



The question is really a moot point in that if both these people were on board, there are 2 seats in the cockpit. Really you want them both, the PPL to 'fly', the PMDG pilot to operate the buttons and radios.

Still I am interested in what others think. How far can simulation take you? Who would you choose?

[Trevor Hale]

Honestly, I would want the PMDG Pilot, However I would want to be in the Cockpit myself, just to make sure everything he did made sense. As long as the entire flight and approach was flown by moving the knobs on the MCP I would be satisfied that we would get on the ground in one piece.

And if not. I couldn't complain about my decision because #1 I'd be Dead, and #2. Because I would die a happy man, being at the controls of a real 747.

My tidbit!

[Tomlin]

Oh man, how many times have I been asked this by both 'kids' and adults alike who know of my simulation/aviation passion!

It's a hard question to answer in a short span of time and words. Since asked, I will try my best to keep it short, but sensible.

First off, yes, professional pilots who really do 'fly' big machines (and small aircraft too) are paid decent money because it takes a very specific skill set to operate any object moving thru space and time and especially in a 3-Directional environment, certainly when weather, traffic, and other normal flight-related activities are present.

However, although simming is NOT 'flying', it's got a lot of the same requirements (if you take your simming as serious as all of us here do) for basic navigation, communication, and systems management. That being said, I believe that someone who really understands basic flight and the aircraft's systems at-hand, then they would probably do pretty well in the stated situation. But, the small aircraft guy would probably do ok too.

However, the difference is that the PMDG guy (and I know the PMDG 737NG backwards and forwards) is confident in his knowledge of the 737. The average GA pilot has no clue.

I, being only 31 years old, and not being a real-world pilot, have been blessed in my years to be around a lot of real pilot people, and in great situations. This is not to brag, but to make a point. I cant tell you how many times a GA pilot has watched me 'fly' the PMDG NG and marvel at my systems knowledge. To take it a step farther, I was given the oportunity to sit in a US Navy C40 (737-700 w/-800 wings) back 2.5 years ago when I worked at NAS Jax. I was there with a Navy mechanic and systems specialist (AE?) and he was simply blown away that I showed him exactly how to start the APU, go thru Normals, and the Start-up Sequence, all without looking at the checklist he had tucked between the two throttle levers. I have to admit, it was a proud moment for me. Then, just a bit over a year ago, I got to actually fly a Boeing P-8 sim built by FDS for Boeing/US Navy and the Boeing guy was amazed I knew how to fly the plane so well.

The point? I have only 10 hours or so flying in Cessnas, Pipers, Maules (and me actually flying them maybe 2 hours total) BUT I have hundreds in the PMDG sim.

Which one would be the safer bet? I guess we would just have to see, but I pray it would never be needed!

[ivar hestnes]

This is probably the mother of all questions for sim-pilots.

Could I land the plane? There is a big psycological aspect here if the situation would appear. How would a sim-pilot act if the situation appeared? Would he be overhvelmed by the situation and forget everything he/she knows in a second? Big chance for that.

The PPL-pilot are not afraid for flying a real plane. But as written in one of the posts here, he probably dont know too much of the systems in the airliner.

Best chance would be the combination of these two.

The PPL-pilot as pilot flying and the Sim-pilot as systems resource.

This kind of question will hopefully never be answered;)

[Gsey]

Without a doubt, the PMDG pilot. The guy who flys irregular hours on a ga aircraft with only his/her ppl would try to land the thing themselves with having no clue on the aircraft systems. Big Mistake. The PMDG pilot I think would be smart enough to know to let the aircraft land itself. No need for heroics when you only have one chance. Any one can fly, just like any one can drive, right? Well we all know the answer to that one :-)

Gary

[Michael Carter]

In that situation, I think I'd rather be anywhere but there.

As a commercial pilot with an instrument rating with no heavy transport time and extremely little turbojet time, any 737 above the 200 series would have me utterly lost in a systems nightmare. I'd be better off hand-flying the aircraft rather than allowing something to go wrong because I punched the wrong button at the wrong time.

I would fare much better in a 727. There is a retired 727 pilot at another forum who was under the impression I was a flight engineer as we discussed the merits and oddities of the 727. I had to explain how I came to know the aircraft as well as I do without having ever sat in the flight engineer's seat.

I have flight manuals, systems manuals, structural manuals, electrical manuals, as well as the requisit checklists, performance tables, etc., ad nauseum.

As for flying the thing, I couldn't honestly answer that unless the situation presented itself with no other options. 727 captains and first officers who designed and tested the DF727 say it flies truer to life than any training simulator they had ever flown.

Some other 727 flight crew aquaintances have agreed.

If I fly it like I do for every flight in all kinds of weather in the simulator, I might have a chance of getting it down in one piece as long as everything else is operating normally aboard the aircraft and the weather is MVFR or better.

If under any other conditions, all bets are off.

I've never sat in the driver's seat in a heavy commercial aircraft while it's rolling and pitching and yawing all over and I don't know how that feels nor how i would react. I can say what I would and should do, but that doesn't make it so when it's time to lay your cards on the table.

A man's got to know his limitations.

[Westozy's missus]

Honestly, I would want the PMDG Pilot, However I would want to be in the Cockpit myself, just to make sure everything he did made sense. As long as the entire flight and approach was flown by moving the knobs on the MCP I would be satisfied that we would get on the ground in one piece.

And if not. I couldn't complain about my decision because #1 I'd be Dead, and #2. Because I would die a happy man, being at the controls of a real 747.

My tidbit!

I'd be ordering chardy and telling Gwyn to get up there and land this thing....in a very polite and calm manner of course!!! I give him a hard time but I have every faith he'd get us down in one piece....

[AndyT]

Personally I think the guy you really want up there is the Cockpit building PPL that sims heavy iron.

Difficult question with no set answers. It really depends on the 2 people you have to choose from. How competent is each one with his flying ability? Is the PPL a CFI? Does he have an Instrument rating?

[spitfire9]

Very interesting question.

I'm a commercial pilot in R/L and I've been interested in sims for a few years.

I think that if you are experienced on some of the excellent full cockpit sims that I've seen here ,,, you might have a chance or even a slight edge over a low time private pilot.

One thing that would be worrysome ,,, in my opinion,,, would be that a person soley trained on a simulator ( unless its one of those $15 million level D things) would be quite surprised at how daunting a task it is to land an aircraft in any kind of crosswind or turbulence.

[Westozy]

I'd be ordering chardy and telling Gwyn to get up there and land this thing....in a very polite and calm manner of course!!! I give him a hard time but I have every faith he'd get us down in one piece....

"Drink rate, Drink rate" "Pull up, pull up"

I think a PPL would do ok if he knew the numbers, you don't get to PPL without being able to 'feel' the aeroplane and be able to handle G loadings. A sim pilot without any flying experience would maybe survive the ordeal who knows?
Sims definately help, I had 4 years of simming before real flying. I never missed an approach, solo'd at 8 hours and was turned loose at 18 hours. It seemed easy to me at the time. Three times I had big scares flying lightys and it's how you cope when things are going wrong which is the real test. That's real flying - 99% pure joy, 1% shear terror! I've had a bit of both...

Gwyn

[Westozy's missus]

[quote=Westozy;38526]"Drink rate, Drink rate" "Pull up, pull up"

I'm so not pulling up when there's a chardy in the house......:p

[Bob Reed]

I agree with Gwyn on this. I do get to fly real GA AC from time to time and I think that if you have never "felt" a plane under you it would be different. Here is the way I see it. I am a driver of cars. I have raced and did ok at it. I race NASCAR online from time to time but the biggest problem I have is I can not feel the car under me so I do not have the cues that I am pushing things too far like in a real car. There is a lot of truth in the "Seat of the pants" Because like driving, flying is lot feel and a sim pilot has no idea of this unless he has flown an airplane.

[mauriceb]

Very interesting question indeed. I have a PPL with about 110 hours including 10 aerobatic hours. I don't use it anymore for many reasons, but I can tell you that with a PPL, under ideal conditions, you can land heavy iron if you know the numbers, but I think it would be a coin toss about who would fare better in such a situation.

About 20 years ago, long before PDMG and the likes, I had a chance to land a 747 full motion simulator in one of my previous jobs. At that time, I had probably less than 50 hours (but I was licensed). The instructor put me at the outer marker, gear down & set up for the approach. He told me what speeds I should try to follow and let me loose. Well, I had one heck of a time keeping this thing lined up with the runway and my flight path was all over the place, but I landed the 747 literally by the seat of my pants.

I never looked at the instruments except an occasional glance at the airspeed indicator and I had no idea about following the glide slope indication - I just looked at the runway. It was a rough landing but it would have been survivable.

A few years later, I had a different opportunity, this time to fly an F18 non-motion simulator at CAE for about 2 hours. I was doing circuits and even though I had many more flying hours by then, it took me almost 2 hours before I landed it without crashing and again without any automation (things happen very fast in an F18 :-).

15 or so years + PDMG later, I had another chance at flying a full motion simulator in Denver (this time a 737). I hadn't flown a real airplane for almost 10 years, but I can tell you that I felt a heck of a lot more comfortable this time and the landing was almost perfect. It was also a manual landing but with A/T & I followed the indicated glideslope until short final.

I still would vote for those who say that a fully trained SIM pilot would probably fare better if all systems are functional & if he can use the A/P & navaids. But without the automation, I think someone with a PPL would have a slight edge. I wouldn't bet my life on it though.

Maurice

[sacad]

GO PPL then cpl then ir then type rating then line traing then a jet pilot !
BUT dont waste time ..how old r u ? do u love to fly ?
good luck:arrow:

[spiro]

hi all
i agreere with west ozy as i hold a ppl and going for a mep/ir at the moment
i belive that a ppl pilot has the felling just needs the numbers and speeds,a ppl will probable flear late and have a hard landing because of the hight of the aircraft as ga you are much more lower to the ground as for the systemes all ppl pilots and generaly speeking piolts have some idea about the hevey iron systems so thats good too as for the sim pilot ,i myself do lots of sim flying when i can not really fly i belive that simming is harder than flying because you cant feel the movment nor the wind and cant control in the same way it is much difftrent felling when at home in a sim and diffrent in real unless you have a motion sim with porojector veiw and and and !!!!!!!
i vote for the ppl with 150h he will get it down with minor damege i belive

[jaspar]

very interesting topic.

i have over 4000hrs pilot in charge as a flying instructor in sailpalnes teaching basics to areobatics befor retiring and have faced numerous inflight emergencies in that time.
it takes a lot practice exploring inflight emergencys and a natural feel for the aircraft to understand and not panic and forget all training and drills when the s*it happens for real.

a regular sim pilot who flys with a va or similar and who has experimented with his systems might just have a chance as long as he keeps his cool and uses the auto pilot to maintain level flight as he uses the radios to summon help from someone who might be able to talk him through the systems to make an autoland.

im a military sim pilot so dont understand heavy iron but could with guidance work the autopilot so would give myself only a 30% chance of sucess.

[ryanf]

Apart from the very advanced level of technical knowledge and skill that can be picked up from the latest home simulators, in my opinion, the two key factors that a pure sim pilot would lack in this situation are airmanship and the ability the work under pressure in a real situation.

I think it is very easy to underestimate the extra pressure of flying for real i.e. where making a mistake can be very costly or fatal. The pure realisation of "this is for real!" can put an alot more cognitive stress on the sim-pilot. An experienced GA pilot, while lacking the systems knowledge, would still have the experience of flying in a real aircraft, in real airspace, talking to real controllers and trying to land on a real (hard!) runway.

So maybe an experienced GA pilot with a sim-pilot as co-pilot would be way to go - given the increasing popularity of this hobby - maybe its not so unlikely that both might happen to be on the stricken aircraft ;)

[cscotthendry]

One thing that would be worrysome ,,, in my opinion,,, would be that a person soley trained on a simulator ( unless its one of those $15 million level D things) would be quite surprised at how daunting a task it is to land an aircraft in any kind of crosswind or turbulence.

I've done a fair amount of flying and more importantly landing on the sim. In fact I partly attribute my sim time to my success learning to land my trike. My instructors never cease to praise my speedy progress with landings. That said, one area where flight sim is sorely inadequate is the way it reacts to turbulence and cross winds. I usually fly the Baron and it doesn't seem to matter to FSX what the weather is doing, it all seems to work the same. So while the sim guy might know how to push the buttons, if it was anything but a completely smooth day, he might go to water the first time the aircraft got smacked sideways by a strong gust, or hit a thermal or downdraft. The PPL though would have better reflexes and touch.

I'd go for the PPL with some radio assist from the ground for the knobs and dials.

[SBaker]

im a PPL almost at CPL.

I think the best chance would be a Sim buff as PIC and the PPL as co-pilot to help find things in manuals and reference things such as approach charts, frequencies, radio communication while the sim buff just flies the thing.

ive got about 150 hours on a 172/PA28/C152/etc etc... but after learning advanced systems for jets through flight sim I would have to say a PPL holder would not have my preference.

[Ronson2k9]

I agree about the seat of your pants flying and feeling the aircraft beneath you. We are talking about a 747 here though so movements are sluggish and slow to respond. Like driving a city bus when you've been in mini cooper most of your life. Survival is also a good motivator and would focus the mind on the task at hand. Remember you aren't a pilot in a bedroom with the computer reset button within reach. You are there in that situation. Your life is dependent on you making the right moves.

I think the sim pilot even though he has no RW experience lets say that has done automated approaches would have the better chance then the GA RW pilot.

If it were me.. (as we are all placing ourselves in this scenario)

I would want help from the ground. This would keep the anxiety level down knowing your not on your own. Also knowing where everything is located and how to adjust things would be a real plus. Given that you may not have faced the emergency that has incapacitated the crew yourself and if the plane is working at it's best capacity. That is there is nothing wrong with the plane that would require your attention beyond that of a normal flight. A sim pilot would have the greater chance. A GA pilot would perhaps be lost and frustrated easily given the complexity of the 747 and that would add to his or her anxiety.

Of course this scenario has been played out in countless movies were 'ordinary' joes have been called to the cockpit to take over. Some of which I've found quite patronizing given the level of knowledge of the general public when it comes to how aircraft operate. Some how there is a deep seeded need to show that flying a plane is not as hard as it seems.

It would be interesting to find out if that has ever happened where a pilot or crew have been replaced by let's say non professional..

[Holclo]

Was watching Sky recently and "Mythbusters" did a piece on just this subject. They set up the scene of aircrew being indisposed and using I think an A320 full motion simulator they were able to land it under the guidance of ATC radio telling them the numbers etc. First without the numbers they failed but with using the Auto Pilot and ATC guiding them in the landing was successful.
Bill

[Ronson2k9]

Yep I remember that episode too. We have it on Discovery Channel in Canada. Both tried one had gotten closer to completion then the other. Still while under ATC they both were able to. Maybe the guys from mythbusters have been here to Mycockpit.org??

[cscotthendry]

Just another thought: What if the sim pilot had spent all his/her time flying with the "ignore damage" setting enabled? I've seen some sim pilots do some pretty horrendous manoevres to line up on final.

[BHawthorne]

Unless the sim pilot had some real world experience, his knowledge might be a detriment to landing in one piece. How the sim acts in situations has gotta be a lot different than how it acts in real life. Simpits are designed for suspension of disbelief and immersion factor. No matter how good they look, you can't get the feel of a simpit like IRL.

Frankly, I don't believe anyone with the capability of picking passenger help would take a simpit pilot as a serious canadate for the issue.

I'd take option #3, a parachute... :p

[pilotwannabe]

I remember an episode of "The Gadget Show" where a GA sim enthusiast who had many sim hours experience was given the challenge of flying and landing a real GA plane. Of course he had a real pilot beside him, but he managed pretty well with the pilot giving little instruction, and better than the man in the street with no sim experience.

Myself, I was up in a Piper (I think) for a trial flight about 18 years ago where I got to handle the aircraft in flight. Exhilarating doesn't cover it. We got airborne and of course I was looking about at all the familiar scenery from a totally different perspective. I remember being asked if I wanted a shot or if I just wanted to look out the window (not sure if she was being sarcastic!). My point is about the "seat of the pants" feeling. A PPL would have that knowledge, whereas the simmer would not. The other side of the coin is that Mr dedicated PMDG would have substantial knowledge of operation where the PPL would not.

My preference would be a PPL who spends all his spare time in the PMDG, but if one is unavailable, then the sim pilot, I believe, would have a better chance - the "seat of the pants" feeling would come sooner or (hopefully not) later.

Just my two bobs worth.

[sacad]

ppl .... if you love to fly > go fly dont wast money and time
SIMULATOR IS A HOPPY :razz:

PPL IS the first step to make money out of your hoppy :mrgreen:

[WJH308]

I have over 2000 hours, most of it instructing instruments. I now fly single pilot cargo, ifr, in a single engine airplane.
The number one skill a pilot needs is situational awareness. The sim pilot makes for a very good instrument pilot, but if all you do is fly the PMDG and Level D glass cockpits, you will be next to useless when it comes to situational awareness.
Also, a sim pilot never looks outside the damn cockpit.
Now to be fair, flying a jet is a completely different way of flying, simply because you don't fly a jet, you ride a jet.
If I am in an airplane with steam gauges, no autopilot, and I need some one next to me, without question, I'll take the PPL who has done their training with steam gauges. If I am in a jet, I'll still take the PPL because at least they are familiar with real world radio communications and procedures. This is not to say the sim pilot is not familiar with any of this stuff, but the PPL still gets priority if not for the least of reasons, the FAA would agree the PPL is more qualified than some one who has never proved themselves capable of being a pilot to the administrator.
My entire childhood I spent flying flight sim, I knew instruments before I started my instrument training, and there is no question that flight sim was the single biggest reason I did well in flight school. None the less there was a tremendous amount of "stuff" I had to learn.

[sacad]

WJH308 i totally agree with u .. i had the exact experience through my chilhood and then after i got my cpl/ir license = flying a real aircraft count
even if it's a small archer or a C150 ..8-)