Several Boeing 737 Type Issues

[CATIII]

Several Boeing 737 Type Problems

Dear PM-Team,

as long-term user of the PM suite I collected quite a lot of descrepancies in the 737 Boeing software suite. Most of them are certainly easy to correct. I decided to post the most important ones here right now and hope these points can be fixed in the near future. All facts have been verified by myself in the real 737-800, since this is my day-to-day working place... I'm sure Jonathan Richardson can confirm these issues, too. Let me start with point no. 1

1) When tuning a DME-only station on NAV1 or NAV2, the previously visible VOR direction pointer should be removed. The pointer is annoying and wrong here since DME station has NO VOR part.

2) On the APPROACH REF page: if I select a flap setting for landing (e.g. 15°), I should get a certain VREF displayed on the speed tape. But it displays ALWAYS the Vref40, which is way too low for a flaps 15 landing. I think that the problem derives from the fact, that Enrico did not reserve an offset for a "variable" Vref, but only for Vref40 (which is 0x5516).
Furthermore, it should be possible to overwrite this flap-specific VREF with an own value by overtyping it in LSK 4R.

3) When pushing the INIT REF button I should not get the index page (INIT REF), but on ground I should get PERF INIT and in the air APPROACH REF.

4) Distances shown on the FIX page should display the tenth of a mile (10.x DME) if the distance becomes smaller than 20NM. The same is true for the entry of distance arcs. The FIX page should accept ranges like 12.5 or 6.6 miles. Presently it does not accept comma-separated values.

5) Let's come to the EICAS display. The fuel flow display on the upper display should NOT have an arc (like N1), but should only be displayed as a decimal value in a box. Next, the TAT display should only be shown as a whole number, there's no need to display the tenth of a degree. The N1 arc does not contain dashes for 10,30,50,70 and so on, but the real aircraft does. With these dashes, it's easier to set a specific N1 setting manually.

6) I want to remove all the messages in the Upper EICAS display like AUTOBRAKE OFF or PASS SIGNS ON. These are not present in the 737 at all. May I accomplish this myself or not?

7) One annoying error happens in one certain situation. That's the problem: 360 is set on the Course selector for NAV1 and I'm trying to track radial 360 outbound of a VOR station. Now, if I'm on radial 358 and the VOR pointer properly shows 358, the CDI should display 1 dot off track. But what it shows is 2 dots away (which means I'm at least 4 degrees offset. This happens only on the 360 radial of any VOR station. Strange, isn't it?


That's all from my personal list for now. I hope one can understand my english. As you may guess, it's not my mother language. And please don't get me wrong from my nagging. I'm very pleased with the functional range of the software suite. With the issues mentioned above, the software would be taken to a next higher level.

Best Regards,
CATIII

[Trevor Hale]

CATIII

Please may I remind you that Project Magenta does not read these forums.

Please be sure to send your posting via email to

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With regard to your posting "6) I want to remove all the messages in the Upper EICAS display like AUTOBRAKE OFF or PASS SIGNS ON. These are not present in the 737 at all. May I accomplish this myself or not?"

you can change this using the (TAB Key) I believe on that machine. If not there, in the GC.ini file you can turn these messages off.



Best regards,

Trevor Hale
Mycockpit - Admin

[JonathanRichardson]

>2) On the APPROACH REF page: if I select a flap setting for landing (e.g. 15°), I should get a certain VREF displayed on the speed tape. But it displays ALWAYS the Vref40, which is way too low for a flaps 15 landing. I think that the problem derives from the fact, that Enrico did not reserve an offset for a "variable" Vref, but only for Vref40 (which is 0x5516).
Furthermore, it should be possible to overwrite this flap-specific VREF with an own value by overtyping it in LSK 4R.

Yes, this is one that we do want to look at quite soon. It has been hanging around, and we are aware of it and so is Enrico.

>3) When pushing the INIT REF button I should not get the index page (INIT REF), but on ground I should get PERF INIT and in the air APPROACH REF.

Simply depends on when we will have time to look at this.

>4) Distances shown on the FIX page should display the tenth of a mile (10.x DME) if the distance becomes smaller than 20NM. The same is true for the entry of distance arcs. The FIX page should accept ranges like 12.5 or 6.6 miles. Presently it does not accept comma-separated values.

How important is that though? Because I really am not so sure that will happen so soon.

>5) Let's come to the EICAS display. The fuel flow display on the upper display should NOT have an arc (like N1), but should only be displayed as a decimal value in a box.

Yes, again it requires specific time allocation for that change. We shall have to see if / when that can be done.

>The N1 arc does not contain dashes for 10,30,50,70 and so on, but the real aircraft does. With these dashes, it's easier to set a specific N1 setting manually.

Will have to research this. I'm not sure if it should be a priority item - we have to have a priority list because on the vast amount that has to be done, not only with 737 software.

6) I want to remove all the messages in the Upper EICAS display like AUTOBRAKE OFF or PASS SIGNS ON. These are not present in the 737 at all. May I accomplish this myself or not?

You can try:

//Note: you can set DisableGCMessages = 1 to disable message generation
//in the glass cockpit

If it does not work:

You can switch it off with this Offset
5700, 1 Byte length
DisableGCMessages
0 = off
1 = all
2 = only basic messages

>7) One annoying error happens in one certain situation. That's the problem: 360 is set on the Course selector for NAV1 and I'm trying to track radial 360 outbound of a VOR station. Now, if I'm on radial 358 and the VOR pointer properly shows 358, the CDI should display 1 dot off track. But what it shows is 2 dots away (which means I'm at least 4 degrees offset. This happens only on the 360 radial of any VOR station. Strange, isn't it?

Never seen it. I have no idea why that is. Certainly something Enrico would only be able to comment on. Reporting lists like this here is not the best place, better to direct them to PM via e-mail if possible. But thank you for the report.

Regards
Jonathan Richardson

[michelmvd]

Hi Jonathan,

This looks an interesting number of optimalisation to the real world items for the B737.
It seems great to me that real life people are helping here, as sometimes it is not easy to find out everything from the manuals and compute things right as their should be in real world.

But I would like to ask you - please - one big favor very much, to see that this B738 adaptations don't come into conflict with other types of Boeing aircraft (B744 - B777) an vice versa if there are done for B744. Some of them are indeed the same others not. Optimalisation for the B737 has sometimes resulted in the past to incorrect things in the B744 version.
As I think it has been always the goal of PM to offer several type possibilities for cockpit projects, even you focussed now heavly on one, the small B737, your understanding is very much appractiated.

B. rgds
Michel

[eudoniga]

Hello CATIII,

since you've got "the true one" to make comparisons, would you please tell me if these - listed below - are actually missing/wrong behaviors from PM 737 suite ?

Thank you !

A) The CDU takeoff page shows - incoherently at the same time - the "pre-flight status complete" label, and the LSK links to pages which are still supposed to require some missing input ...

B) The CDU takeoff page doesn't automatically shift to ACT CLB - ACT CRZ - ACT DES pages, as far as the flight progresses from phase to phase (even if you fly constantly in VNAV mode)

C) Whilst the "RTE" page becomes "ACT RTE" after EXECution, "PERF" page doesn't become "ACT PERF" after EXECution.>>
> >
D) A few CDU messages never show up, like (in alphabetical order):>>

1) APPRCH VREF NOT SELECTED
2) ARR N/A FOR RUNWAY
3) CHECK ALT TARGET
4) DES PATH UNACHIEVABLE
5) ENTER IRS POSITION
6) LOC CAP ACTIVE
7) NOT ON INTERCEPT HEADING
OVERSPEED DISCONNECT
9) PATH DES NOT AVAILABLE
10) RESET MCP ALT
11) RW/APP CRS ERROR
12) RW/APP TUNE DISAGREE
13) TAI ON ABOVE 10° C
14) THRUST REQUIRED
15) UNABLE NEXT ALTITUDE
16) VNAV DISCONNECT>>

E) Is one expected to hear "minimums" called either by setting RADIO or by setting BARO minimum altitude ?

Regds,

[JonathanRichardson]

Hi

I would not be concerned about this as we are all fully aware of 747/777 and 737 type differences. This does not mean we are able to cater for all of them.... if only it were a perfect world.

Regards
Jonathan

Hi Jonathan,

This looks an interesting number of optimalisation to the real world items for the B737.
It seems great to me that real life people are helping here, as sometimes it is not easy to find out everything from the manuals and compute things right as their should be in real world.

But I would like to ask you - please - one big favor very much, to see that this B738 adaptations don't come into conflict with other types of Boeing aircraft (B744 - B777) an vice versa if there are done for B744. Some of them are indeed the same others not. Optimalisation for the B737 has sometimes resulted in the past to incorrect things in the B744 version.
As I think it has been always the goal of PM to offer several type possibilities for cockpit projects, even you focussed now heavly on one, the small B737, your understanding is very much appractiated.

B. rgds
Michel

[michelmvd]

Great to know Jonathan

[CATIII]

Hello CATIII,

since you've got "the true one" to make comparisons, would you please tell me if these - listed below - are actually missing/wrong behaviors from PM 737 suite ?

yes

A) The CDU takeoff page shows - incoherently at the same time - the "pre-flight status complete" label, and the LSK links to pages which are still supposed to require some missing input ...

Of course, the prompts for completed pages like PERF for example should disappear in the PM software as they do in the real one.

B) The CDU takeoff page doesn't automatically shift to ACT CLB - ACT CRZ - ACT DES pages, as far as the flight progresses from phase to phase (even if you fly constantly in VNAV mode)

The pages DO shift automatically in the real one, but not in PM, you're right.

C) Whilst the "RTE" page becomes "ACT RTE" after EXECution, "PERF" page doesn't become "ACT PERF" after EXECution.

Correct for the real aircraft.

D) A few CDU messages never show up, like (in alphabetical order):

1) APPRCH VREF NOT SELECTED
2) ARR N/A FOR RUNWAY
3) CHECK ALT TARGET
4) DES PATH UNACHIEVABLE
5) ENTER IRS POSITION
6) LOC CAP ACTIVE
7) NOT ON INTERCEPT HEADING
OVERSPEED DISCONNECT
9) PATH DES NOT AVAILABLE
10) RESET MCP ALT
11) RW/APP CRS ERROR
12) RW/APP TUNE DISAGREE
13) TAI ON ABOVE 10° C
14) THRUST REQUIRED
15) UNABLE NEXT ALTITUDE
16) VNAV DISCONNECT>>

I know these messages although I see them very seldom on my CDU. My guess is they're not implemented in PM.

E) Is one expected to hear "minimums" called either by setting RADIO or by setting BARO minimum altitude ?

Both callouts "Approaching Minimums" and "Minumums" are based on the captain's minimum setting, no matter if it's a barometric or RA-based setting.

Hope this helps!

CATIII

[CATIII]

Hey Jonathan,

thank you for your reply to my post.

>3) When pushing the INIT REF button I should not get the index page (INIT REF), but on ground I should get PERF INIT and in the air APPROACH REF.

Simply depends on when we will have time to look at this.

Are you able to specify a rough timeframe for adddressing these (and other) subjects?

>4) Distances shown on the FIX page should display the tenth of a mile (10.x DME) if the distance becomes smaller than 20NM. The same is true for the entry of distance arcs. The FIX page should accept ranges like 12.5 or 6.6 miles. Presently it does not accept comma-separated values.

How important is that though? Because I really am not so sure that will happen so soon.

If you ask me, it's quite important. I think, it's a relatively small software change, since it's only a matter of formatting the DME value.

>5) Let's come to the EICAS display. The fuel flow display on the upper display should NOT have an arc (like N1), but should only be displayed as a decimal value in a box.

Yes, again it requires specific time allocation for that change. We shall have to see if / when that can be done.

See above (concerning timeframe).

6) I want to remove all the messages in the Upper EICAS display like AUTOBRAKE OFF or PASS SIGNS ON. These are not present in the 737 at all. May I accomplish this myself or not?

You can try:

//Note: you can set DisableGCMessages = 1 to disable message generation
//in the glass cockpit

This setting doesn't do anything in PFD.INI. I don't use PMSystems...

If it does not work:

You can switch it off with this Offset
5700, 1 Byte length
DisableGCMessages
0 = off
1 = all
2 = only basic messages

This offset (value 1) works perfectly. Thank you!

Regards,
CATIII

[eudoniga]

Thanks CATIII for correcting my guess: I thought the relevant setting for the minimums was taken from the instrument of the pilot flying, whose FD was "master" for the time being, regardless to the seat he was occupying ...

And I knew about the need of "synchronize" and cross-check both altimeters, in type (BARO/RADIO) and in setting, but I didn't know the captain's was always the "leading" one for minimum callout ...

My memories can be wrong, but I don't remember hearing "minimums" called (by PMSounds) with a DA set on the BARO alt, whilst a DH set on the RADIO alt surely produces correct calls.

Thanks for helping !!!

Eugenio.

p.s. I think I caught one more. Fuel used shown on the EICAS page: I reserved a button to switch from F/F to F/U and back. I normally use Lbs as unit of measure, and the fuel quantity gauge in fact displays Lbs as reqd; but, when I switch to F/U after a flight, the displayed value is almost half of the used fuel. My guess is that this value is showing kilos, not pounds.